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Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:15 pm

The laser bullet looks to be coherent because it's not dispersing like a flashlight would. Not all lasers are continuous, hence pulsed lasers. As for speed in game play, I'm ignoring it because there are two Metroid games that make it clear that these weapons are using electromagnetic radiation. Light energy applies to EMR. High-frequencies apply to EMR. The only way these could be slowed down is if they were passing through a medium, and water and air wouldn't be enough to slow it down to supersonic speeds. I know there has been the argument that the power beam travels at supersonic speed if anything, since it leaves behind sound waves when the echo visor is used. And of course, "energy beam" would place the power beam under "directed-energy weapon". I'm not sure what else this would fall under. "Kinetic weapon" uses objects made of mass, for example, not energy.

My current impression is that Samus' sense move allows her to dodge attacks that travel at light speed. It's not that she has nanosecond reaction time, it's simply that she can react to the imminent danger, which may give the illusion that she is dodging these attacks. I suppose you could call it aim-dodging. The part where Samus can see sound traveling is with the echo visor, and while this is with the use of the echo visor, I don't think that should be seen as no evidence of Samus' reaction time. The reason I say this is because in order to see sound, Samus needs the echo visor active, but that doesn't mean she needs it active to see objects themselves traveling at the speed of sound. It was probably on my Dryn account, but I do recall sending you a PM concerning Mega Man's reaction time. Or I think it was Mega Man anyway. If it was, then I think we could at least apply that to X himself.

Where would the part be in the video you linked where X slices the bullets? As for how much we can interpret game play as canon, the way I see it, game play is canon. Unless there is a reason why game play should be ignored, I'll treat it as canon and with as much validity as a cut-scene. I am perfectly fine with accepting X having the ability to react to supersonic objects. I'm not even going to contest this because as I said before, if one could argue that playing games like Sonic the Hedgehog would be impossible if Sonic actually traveled at sonic speed in-game, then it would equally be impossible to complete any game that involved sonic projectiles. Right now, I'm trying to work with you concerning X's abilities. I want to make things as fair as possible for both characters so that if one thing is applied to Samus, then it'll be applied to X as well and vice versa.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:07 pm

I guess I can accept Samus aim dodging light speed projectiles through the sense move if that is what the manuals and canon text suggests. I still have problems accepting that the Power Beam itself travels at light speed, but I have no issue seeing how the other beams might travel that fast. However, there is nevertheless an issue that makes me iffy on the beams being light speed.

My issue isn't just how gameplay portrays the various beams, but how they are shown in cutscenes, which feature these beams. Ridley is seen dodging the Plasma Beam in Other M after Samus had already fired the beam. There is even a slow down showing that he didn't move until after Samus had already pulled the trigger. If what you say about her beams being light speed held true for Metroid, then Ridley should have been hit by the beam despite his best efforts. As the scene suggests, Ridley would be able to react to supersonic objects if we kept Samus' beams supersonic at the low end. It would make no sense if Ridley could react to light speed objects unless he too had precognition.

The same can also be said of X's projectiles. He doesn't have precognition so how then, is he able to perceive "lasers" and electric discharges? How is Zero able to easily perceive "lasers" and "lightning" and yet be barely able to track Harpuia's movements? Assuming that these projectiles are traveling at speeds beyond what the characters can react to contradicts the canon which portrays these projectiles inaccurately.

X slices the bullets in 6:13 during gameplay with the Z saber. As for the gameplay, again, I'm conflicted. You were the one who argued that it shouldn't be treated at face value during the original X vs. Samus debate, and so far I've been trying to make a case for X's speed and reactions without resorting to gameplay. I find that that method has thus far been difficult because canon seems to be a mixture of textual materials represented in gameplay with intentionally implemented animations. I say this, because there are attacks in the Mega Man games that cannot be dodged unless one already knows what to expect, and there are attacks like bullets that can easily be weaved around/shot away/sliced even if one wasnt expecting them. In much the same way that the Metroid manuals treat speed boosting/shinesparking as supersonic even though it doesn't look like it in-game, the Mega Man material I've found and presented has made it difficult (for me at least) to deny that X and Zero can not only react against supersonic projectiles, but physically move at a comparable pace, to the point where canonically supersonic enemies like Fenri Lunaedge appear to move no faster than Zero's own movements or the bullets fired and dodged from X/Zero's guns, and where Fenri Lunaedge moves much slower compared to bosses like Harpuia, who derives his abilities from when X's soul split into 5 while trying to seal the Mother Elf.

Perhaps it's personal bias or my lack of understanding of what's going on in Mega Man games, but I don't know what to make of this information. If gameplay is to be taken at face value, where canonically supersonic characters move no faster than X/Zero, then one could infer that X/Zero can move at supersonic speeds. If that is the case, then X should be able to easily avoid Samus' aim especially if he's shooting at her with his own projectiles. Whether or not his weapons can cause sufficient damage is another matter altogether.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:47 pm

Don't get me wrong, I also am iffy about the power beam's speed. It's just the qualities of the power beam and the way it behaves gives me the idea that it is a pulsed laser. The description for Eyon in Metroid Prime says, "the Eyon is sensitive to light and will close shut if a bright flash ignites nearby." This would be the result of the power beam. If you shoot the power beam down a dark corridor, the walls, ceiling, and floor will be lit up, just like what you saw in the video regarding the laser bullet. An alternative from what I'm reading right now is that physicists have managed to slow down light in a vacuum. This is perfect because previous studies for "slow light" was done through a medium. The light that passed through this "mask" slowed down and continued to remain that speed after passing through. So if the Chozo are incredibly smart aliens (which I think we'd agree that they are), then it could be possible that the power beam uses photons, but they've been slowed down considerably.

As for the plasma beam, I understand it is an electrolaser. The official Metroid Fusion Web site says the plasma beam fires three lasers. Lasers and plasma can only be possible if the laser produces a laser-induced plasma channel. I considered that both Samus' plasma beam and Anthony Higgs' plasma gun produce an electrical discharge, which is fine because a natural plasma like lightning produces electricity. So the beam itself wouldn't travel light speed, although the laser itself would. The electricity would go down this path. I suppose in X's case, this is where he and Samus would diverge. So far, we don't know anything of X's reaction time, except that he can avoid supersonic objects. My conclusions concerning Samus' reaction time is based both on the space pirates' use of what I've argued to be the wave beam in MOM and the sense move. The only beam in Samus' arsenal that would reach light speed would be the wave beam.

I apologize for having you feel conflicted. Some time after our discussion between X and Samus, when I went ahead to seek how durable Samus' power suit was, I discussed this matter with someone who calls himself TheBlackCat at Metroid Database. He made me question whether or not I should use game play as evidence. His arguments seemed better than mine and then I later realized that perhaps I shouldn't readily dismiss game play. Not only that, but there was also EnigmaJ, who argued against the idea that planet Zebes had a gravity 955 times that of Earth's simply by using game play. It would be impossible for there to be rain on that planet if the gravity was that high. I am using game play, but I'm also connecting it with textual data.

I can see the conflict also from the games where everything is moving at similar speeds, so one might question if others are moving at the same speed. Those volfons I was talking about early seem to be able to keep up with Samus in MOM, but when she uses the speed booster, they're still somewhat behind her. Does this mean they can move at supersonic speed? I see no reason to think so because the textual data doesn't apply to them. At the same time, if the developers intended for projectiles to move at a certain speed from textual data, don't you think that ignoring strict game play, Mega Man would always be shot by any supersonic projectile? I've seen the video you posted with X dodging projectiles and outrunning magma. These would resolve the conflict because you have another official source clarifying things for you.

Perhaps you're correct and I'm not.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:37 am

Okay. The beams make more sense now with the plasma channel theory. I think that explains why the beams follow a linear path along a set area and why the beams are so coherent (unless intermittently fired like in Super Metroid). I can accept that the weapons travel at light speed given the nature of the beams, but that the damaging part of the beams themselves go through a delay of sorts, which is why this effect can still be observed in cutscenes.

On the topic of Samus' reaction time, how do we determine how much of it independent of her precognition? Since precognition allows her to know where attacks are coming, it gives her more time to react possibly before the stimulus is even detected. Does it matter at all even if her precognition and actual reaction time are closely tied to one another?

Ignoring strict gameplay conventions, then possibly. Like the Speed booster example I used earlier though, I wonder how much of the developers' intent is actually portrayed in the gameplay. If the bullets moved as fast as they are, it's true that it would be impossible for us to properly play the games. But what if the intent is for the characters to already be moving/perceiving fast enough that bullets are essentially no threat to them? Bullets appear slow to X and Zero, and supersonic foes travel at exactly the same speed. If supersonic foes were meant to be such a threat to characters not meant to keep up, then the developers could have made these foes/attacks too fast for the player to react (undodgeable attacks are possible in games after all), like some laser attacks that require prior knowledge in order to dodge. Harpuia's speed definitely makes more sense when supersonic given that Zero can barely perceive him and yet be easily able to track down a bullet's trajectory, slice three round machine-gun bursts, and outrun a "core vulcan." Also that X's Falcon Armor's flight mode creates an aura that resembles a shockwave whenever he flies.

https://youtu.be/LXkW8ve_NSk?t=40s

Again, this moves no faster than bullets travel. Although that makes me question why the background is moving faster than either the bullets or the characters, or why there is a lack of a shockwave whenever X and Zero are normally dashing (the ZX characters seem to have a shockwave effect, however). What do you think, Mea? Are these examples and comparisons non-sequiturs?
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:12 pm

I apologize for not getting back for a few days. I didn't forget about this thread. I'd probably say Samus' reaction time and precognition are independent of each other in the same way Spider Man's spider sense and reaction time are independent of each other. Without any imminent danger, Samus can still observe objects moving at sonic speed (the sound waves in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes) and she's able to react while running at supersonic speed. When she leaps to the other side of a place in Metroid: Other M, she would need to be able to time what's going to happen next, or she would fail to make it to the next side. Or, if she planned on using the shinespark while fighting an enemy, she would have needed to make sure she hits her target at the right time, as she does in MOM when fighting Nightmare. (This happens in the MOM movie. It's game play, but game play performed by one of the developers.)

The problem that you brought up about the background's speed and projectile speed is the same problem I have. Sure, the idea that you mentioned is something I've seen several people bring up in the past, but if someone like Samus or X were traveling at the same speed as these projectiles, then they would be falling at the same speed as these projectiles. Unlike X, in the Metroid Prime trilogy, we see everything through Samus' eyes, and unlike X, we know planet Zebes' gravitational acceleration is 9.36 m/s^2 (based on the mass and diameter of Zebes). Sure, for X, the gravity on Earth would be 9.81 m/s^2, so we can see this contradicts the rest of what we see. I'd be fine with the Falcon Armor traveling at supersonic speed, since I'd agree with you that the visuals are likely indicating that.

By the way, X's armor is made of titanium x, and while I am one who believes that the damage characters can take in-game is an indicator that they can actually be injured that way outside of game play, I am not sure what to think of when X takes damage. I've tried resolving this for Mega Man by saying that perhaps his bones are made of ceramic titanium, rather than his armor. Because we don't know what titanium x is supposed to be like in terms of properties, using the information of titanium, X's armor would have a melting point of 1,668°C, a Young's modulus 116 GPa, shear modulus of 44 GPa, bulk modulus of 110 GPa, Brinell's hardness of 716 MPa to 2.77 GPa. So as you can see, titanium is pretty durable, but I'm just not sure what to think of the damage X can take during game play.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:31 am

I understand. I'd forgotten that Samus would need to be constantly cognizant as well in order to maneuver as well as she does while Speed Boosting.

Or, if she planned on using the shinespark while fighting an enemy, she would have needed to make sure she hits her target at the right time, as she does in MOM when fighting Nightmare.


I also remember seeing this in the cinematics for M:OM. I thought it was pretty neat, and I wish I'd done it considering that there's enough room to properly Speed Boost unlike the other bosses.

The problem that you brought up about the background's speed and projectile speed is the same problem I have.


That does bring up an interesting conundrum. Perhaps the background is only attached for the sake of setting since we know that bullets and certain supersonic enemies were intended to be that fast. However, that ignores the rest of the canon that is incorporated into the gameplay. Maybe the limitations of the 2D plane is what causes X/Zero to fall at regular speed in gameplay, since if another dimension was added, either of them would only have to move to the side in order to dodge, just like X did in the X3 intro cinematic. Though that still doesn't explain why the Falcon Armor's flight mode appears supersonic, travels at around the same speed as energy bullets, and yet is still portrayed as slower than the regular dash.

Since the Falcon Armor's flight is constantly described in canon as granting X full flight, perhaps the shock waves accompanying it are a result of potentially flying at high altitudes whereas dashing lacks it because of being at around ground level. From the X3 intro stage, we are shown that X and Zero can leap stories high into the air, but gameplay does not allow for that, so we know that gameplay does limit their abilities to an extent.

I don't remember much about the conditions needed to produce a shock wave, but I remember you mentioning something about it when we were discussing Soma Cruz' shock waves from the Black Panther Soul.

By the way, X's armor is made of titanium x, and while I am one who believes that the damage characters can take in-game is an indicator that they can actually be injured that way outside of game play, I am not sure what to think of when X takes damage.


I think a shield is referenced almost every time X acquires a new armor.

"Mega Man X, enter the capsule. This enhancement will modify your body armor. With it you will be able absorb damage and transfer it into explosive weapon energy." Dr. Light, MMX2

"Enter this capsule, X. Take this Armor upgrade. The upgrade will decrease the damage done to your systems. As you receive damage, a defense field will be generated to protect you." Dr. Light, MMX3

"Enter this capsule, X. Install this Body Chip. This chip will increase your defensive ability. Your defense shields will be enhanced and you will receive even less damage." Dr. Light, MMX3

"This makes your temporary invincibility after taking damage last twice as long." - D Barrier, MMX6

"This makes the damage you take restore weapon energy for the Giga Attack and special weapons." D Converter, MMX6

X's armors tend to absorb the damage he takes, either by converting part of the energy into a Giga Attack (X2, X4-X6) or by generating a defense field (X3). Other armors merely halve his damage taken with no explanation. In addition, the parts acquired in X5/X6 are deemed canon by this conversation in X6, implying that the flashing invincibility is canon. Perhaps it's a form of energy shield.

"Alia: Ummm... X...

X: What is it, Alia?

Alia: Ummm... Nothing... Just be careful...

Signas: Some Reploids may accept what Isoc says as true and come to the Nightmare areas... If you find them, secure them and then send them to the Hunter Base. The Reploids you have rescued can be surveyed here by pressing the R1 button.

Douglas: And if you obtain any items, I'll process them into Parts you can use. You can equip the parts with the L1 button.

Signas: Good luck, X!" MMX6 Script http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man_ ... (X's_story)

To add to that theory, MMX Command Mission has a shield stat that can be boosted. This is separate from the armor stat. https://youtu.be/43p-b8zDbU4?t=1m22s

So I think the Titanium X accounts for X's actual body armor but doesn't account for the shield which I think absorbs the damage incurred on him. You can see the hit animation in this sprite sheet that some kind of barrier does cover X whenever he is damaged. http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/sprite.php ... X/X/X4-X6/

The same thing can be observed when he has other armors equipped. http://www.sprites-inc.co.uk/sprite.php ... Armors/X5/

Coupled with what was said in the X1 manual about LE being canon, I think that bar represents the amount of reactor energy needed to power the characters' defense field. Once that runs out, I don't think X's armor can take very much punishment and fails, resulting in a game over.

"X is powered by a micro-fusion fuel tank. His current energy level is indicated by an energy meter in the upper left corner of the screen. Each time X is damaged his energy meter will decrease. If all his energy is lost, X's fusion generator will go critical and explode. However, energy depletion can be avoided by collecting standard energy capsules. Using the capsules to increase the energy meter, X should be able to function indefinitely." X1 manual

I don't think it makes much sense for X to lose energy after every hit while staying in one piece. Assuming his Titanium X frame is anywhere close to real world materials, there is no way it should be able to take as much punishment as he takes in the games unless Titanium X is so much more durable than regular titanium.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:17 pm

theobserver wrote:I also remember seeing this in the cinematics for M:OM. I thought it was pretty neat, and I wish I'd done it considering that there's enough room to properly Speed Boost unlike the other bosses.


I tried it out myself, but I wasn't successful. Nightmare would hit me with his lasers while spinning around or hit me with those orb projectiles.

theobserver wrote:That does bring up an interesting conundrum. Perhaps the background is only attached for the sake of setting since we know that bullets and certain supersonic enemies were intended to be that fast. However, that ignores the rest of the canon that is incorporated into the gameplay. Maybe the limitations of the 2D plane is what causes X/Zero to fall at regular speed in gameplay, since if another dimension was added, either of them would only have to move to the side in order to dodge, just like X did in the X3 intro cinematic. Though that still doesn't explain why the Falcon Armor's flight mode appears supersonic, travels at around the same speed as energy bullets, and yet is still portrayed as slower than the regular dash.


I think it's just the limitations. While not all visuals can be readily accepted, with corroborating evidence this would make a difference. As I said before, Mega Man and X have fought enemies capable of shooting sonic and supersonic waves, and would depend on being able to dodge them. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing that Mega Man or X would rely on in order to aim-dodge.

theobserver wrote:Since the Falcon Armor's flight is constantly described in canon as granting X full flight, perhaps the shock waves accompanying it are a result of potentially flying at high altitudes whereas dashing lacks it because of being at around ground level. From the X3 intro stage, we are shown that X and Zero can leap stories high into the air, but gameplay does not allow for that, so we know that gameplay does limit their abilities to an extent.


For someone like X, the Mach cone would be smaller. Mach cones also rely on the speed of an object. If a Mach cone is wide, then it's moving slower, whereas if the angle of the cone is narrower, that means the object is moving faster. We can see the cone angle here.

Image

Using this, we can find the speed at which X would be traveling with the Falcon Armor. With the angle of 48 degrees, the speed would be Mach 1.35. By the way, I slowed down the video you provided by half and got a time of 5.142 seconds. Multiplying this by half would give me 2.571 seconds. Using kinematics, X was able to jump 32.42 m. (106.37 ft.) into the air. That should be 12.61 m/s (28.2 mi/h).

theobserver wrote:I think a shield is referenced almost every time X acquires a new armor.

"Mega Man X, enter the capsule. This enhancement will modify your body armor. With it you will be able absorb damage and transfer it into explosive weapon energy." Dr. Light, MMX2

"Enter this capsule, X. Take this Armor upgrade. The upgrade will decrease the damage done to your systems. As you receive damage, a defense field will be generated to protect you." Dr. Light, MMX3

"Enter this capsule, X. Install this Body Chip. This chip will increase your defensive ability. Your defense shields will be enhanced and you will receive even less damage." Dr. Light, MMX3

"This makes your temporary invincibility after taking damage last twice as long." - D Barrier, MMX6

"This makes the damage you take restore weapon energy for the Giga Attack and special weapons." D Converter, MMX6

X's armors tend to absorb the damage he takes, either by converting part of the energy into a Giga Attack (X2, X4-X6) or by generating a defense field (X3). Other armors merely halve his damage taken with no explanation. In addition, the parts acquired in X5/X6 are deemed canon by this conversation in X6, implying that the flashing invincibility is canon. Perhaps it's a form of energy shield.

"Alia: Ummm... X...

X: What is it, Alia?

Alia: Ummm... Nothing... Just be careful...

Signas: Some Reploids may accept what Isoc says as true and come to the Nightmare areas... If you find them, secure them and then send them


All right. So Samus and X have energy shields. That's at least good to know. I suppose then that since both characters are using an energy shield, the next question would be how long could each last.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:08 am

Oh, cool. So the Falcon Armor's flight speed should be around Mach 1.35. Too bad X doesn't have that armor in X4. That said, do you think it's safe to scale dash speed based on the Falcon Armor?

I'm going to have to do some digging for good examples of X's durability. The only thing I have off the top of my head is how it was able to survive Z-saber slashes with only scratches from the cutscene following the X vs. Zero battle in X5.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:45 pm

theobserver wrote:Oh, cool. So the Falcon Armor's flight speed should be around Mach 1.35. Too bad X doesn't have that armor in X4. That said, do you think it's safe to scale dash speed based on the Falcon Armor?

I'm going to have to do some digging for good examples of X's durability. The only thing I have off the top of my head is how it was able to survive Z-saber slashes with only scratches from the cutscene following the X vs. Zero battle in X5.


It should be around that speed. You could use X5 or X6 if you think it'd make the match fairer. The Ultimate Armor in X4 would grant X unlimited special weapons as long as they're not charged, though, whereas subsequent games reduce the use by 50%. I wouldn't scale X's speed with the speed of Falcon Armor, however, since not all speeds we observe in-game are accurate. For example, those volfons can somewhat keep up with Samus as she's using the speed booster, but I wouldn't think they're close to her in speed.

I think I'll have to do the same for Samus' durability.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:41 pm

Energy
Kinetic energy: 21,176,820 joules, or 5.06 kilograms of TNT. [1]

Force
G-force: 69.95 g, or approximately 30 times Jupiter's gravity. Samus would feel as if weighs 6.94 short tons for the duration she travels. 4 to 6 g is when pilots black out. [1]

Gravitational force: Nightmare produces 5.65 g, or approximately 2.4 times Jupiter's gravity. Even without the gravity suit, Samus shows no ill effects or struggle with this kind of gravity. [2]

Temperature
Heat: Samus' ability to be in space with the power suit would at least allow her to withstand 260°C, as metal under constant sunlight can reach that temperature. [3] While Samus may not be outside in space for too long, the metal surface of Frigate Orpheon should be at least that hot. Samus shows no annoyance from this temperature. The air of Norfair ignoring the sweltering rooms reach up to 379°C without the varia suit. [4] The lava in Metroid: Other M has been determined to be andesitic, meaning the temperature reaches between 800 to 1,000°C. This is the range the gravity suit can withstand in terms of thermal insulation. [5]

Cold: The cosmic microwave background radiation in space is 2.7 K, or -270.45°C, but this is only if one travels away from everything in the Universe. In the shade, temperatures reach below -100°C. [3]

1. In hac mea interpretatione - How powerful is the speed booster and what g-force does Samus experience?
2. In hac mea interpretatione - Nightmare's gravity
3. How Cold is Space?
4. Norfair and air temperature, Samus Aran [Discussion], p. 4
5. In hac mea interpretatione - The gravity suit's ability to withstand magma and lava

--------------------

These are just a few feats for Samus I can think of right now.
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