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Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

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Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:16 pm

Opponent 1: Mega Man X
Opponent 2: Samus Aran
Original thread: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran
Alternate equipment: Both characters are at their prime in terms of a single incarnation. Composite forms are prohibited.
Alternate location: The Sahara, Africa
Defeat must occur by: Incapacitation, battlefield removal, or death.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:28 am

This brings back memories. Not sure how I'm going to contribute this time, though. I'm not sure how to even begin to quantify speed in Mega Man games now. Bullets travel at around the same speed as sonic projectiles, electric projectiles, etc., and the characters move around the same range in gameplay.

That said, X's prime (in terms of loadout) I think would be X8. Or maybe X5 since it's essentially the same thing but with a time stop instead of a localised black hole.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:24 pm

theobserver wrote:This brings back memories. Not sure how I'm going to contribute this time, though. I'm not sure how to even begin to quantify speed in Mega Man games now. Bullets travel at around the same speed as sonic projectiles, electric projectiles, etc., and the characters move around the same range in gameplay.

That said, X's prime (in terms of loadout) I think would be X8. Or maybe X5 since it's essentially the same thing but with a time stop instead of a localised black hole.


I've been considering the projectiles traveling at the same speed. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, the nova beam is described as a "high-frequency beam", which would apply to an electromagnetic radiation. As you might know, electromagnetic radiation travels at the speed of light in a vacuum. Yet, in-game, it doesn't travel at that speed. The same with the light beam, which shoots "light energy". A more proper word may be "luminous energy", which would be the perceived energy of light. Of course, if Samus shoots the light beam in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, it'll travel in a straight line and does not behave like the power beam.

So, I'd take sonic projectiles to travel at the speed of sound. After all, using the same line of reasoning as others do of Sonic by saying it'd be impossible to play, since we wouldn't be able to react to it, I say that if the projectiles traveled at the true speed in-game, then it'd be impossible to win. The thunder dancer from MMX8 says it's an electrical weapon, so it could be an electrolaser, although nothing about a laser is mentioned. I have interpreted Samus' plasma beam this way since the official Metroid Fusion Web site says the plasma beam fires three lasers. A laser can produce plasma. This would be known as a laser-induced plasma channel. then electrons would be sent through this channel, creating a bolt of lightning. In Metroid: Other M, the plasma beam and Anthony Higgs' plasma gun generate electrical discharges.

Although I've concluded both Samus and X can react to supersonic objects, I am reconsidering this if both characters interact with directed-energy weapons. This could put them at micro- or nanosecond reaction time. I feel a bit iffy about it, though.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:20 pm

Reacting to supersonic objects should be fine, but I agree that the other DEW projectiles are iffy considering a lot of them (especially in X's case) don't travel that much faster than regular supersonic projectiles. There's also the matter of speed. If gameplay was to be taken at face value, then one could argue that X's movement speed is supersonic. But that opens up another can of worms like the "light speed X" argument that was shot down ages ago. I'll see if I can expand on the thought later when I have more time.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:51 pm

theobserver wrote:Reacting to supersonic objects should be fine, but I agree that the other DEW projectiles are iffy considering a lot of them (especially in X's case) don't travel that much faster than regular supersonic projectiles. There's also the matter of speed. If gameplay was to be taken at face value, then one could argue that X's movement speed is supersonic. But that opens up another can of worms like the "light speed X" argument that was shot down ages ago. I'll see if I can expand on the thought later when I have more time.


I wouldn't say someone like X could travel at light speed if game play was taken at face value, simply because these wouldn't be focused so much on game play as it would be focused on texts from manuals, in-game descriptions, or the like. After all, textual data is not affected by game mechanics. I know we've bumped into a few problems like the splash laser. It says the weapon "emits a water laser", but I'd say it's more like a water jet cutter, although the technology could be similar to that of WaterLase, which uses a laser and water in dentistry. I already have an argument made that Samus' sense move is precognition and while she doesn't have nanosecond reaction time, she is able to react just in time before electromagnetic weapons can hit her.

By the way, I created this thread because I was hoping we could discuss this. This thread was created specifically for you, since you know about X.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:03 pm

I'm inclined to agree about the precognition involved in sense move. If I'm remembering correctly, I think Samus was already in motion by the time Gandrayda (disguised as a GF trooper) open fired on her in Prime 3. Add that to the sense move's integration in Other M, and it makes all sorts of sense (Pun not intended. Okay, maybe a little).

As I said before, I'm not sure what to make of X's speed. We've had trouble with misnomers regarding lasers in X's games, since there are multiple projectiles that are described as lasers either in the manuals or in-game, yet they behave nothing like them. Their speeds also vary from game to game, so that should be enough to conclude that most of these lasers are misnamed. Possibly from the trope where any generic energy weapon can be called a laser. I think what makes more sense to me is that all these elementally-flavored projectiles in Mega Man are variations of energy bullets that all travel at around the same speed, as opposed to accurate portrayals of DEW. After all, it makes no sense for X's regular buster shots to travel at the same speed or even faster than designated lasers like the Chameleon Sting. The same could be the case with the Power Beam vs. Light Beam.

As for movement speed, I don't recall very much if anything ever mentioned about that in the manuals. The dash is left ambiguous, and the only way I remember arguing about its speed is by comparing X's movements with the projectiles he dodges in gameplay. I now think that this method is insufficient and unreliable at determining speed, since it relies too much on mechanics where even the character's falling speed is not that far beyond the speed of the projectiles that are dodged.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:11 pm

theobserver wrote:I'm inclined to agree about the precognition involved in sense move. If I'm remembering correctly, I think Samus was already in motion by the time Gandrayda (disguised as a GF trooper) open fired on her in Prime 3. Add that to the sense move's integration in Other M, and it makes all sorts of sense (Pun not intended. Okay, maybe a little).

As I said before, I'm not sure what to make of X's speed. We've had trouble with misnomers regarding lasers in X's games, since there are multiple projectiles that are described as lasers either in the manuals or in-game, yet they behave nothing like them. Their speeds also vary from game to game, so that should be enough to conclude that most of these lasers are misnamed. Possibly from the trope where any generic energy weapon can be called a laser. I think what makes more sense to me is that all these elementally-flavored projectiles in Mega Man are variations of energy bullets that all travel at around the same speed, as opposed to accurate portrayals of DEW. After all, it makes no sense for X's regular buster shots to travel at the same speed or even faster than designated lasers like the Chameleon Sting. The same could be the case with the Power Beam vs. Light Beam.

As for movement speed, I don't recall very much if anything ever mentioned about that in the manuals. The dash is left ambiguous, and the only way I remember arguing about its speed is by comparing X's movements with the projectiles he dodges in gameplay. I now think that this method is insufficient and unreliable at determining speed, since it relies too much on mechanics where even the character's falling speed is not that far beyond the speed of the projectiles that are dodged.


Perhaps most of the weapons are given a misnomer and referred to as "laser", but I still cannot help but consider them to be capable of traveling at the speed of light. Here's why. In Metroid Prime, the power beam is described as a "basic energy unit" and the official Metroid Fusion Web site calls the power beam, "energy beam". I've attempted to understand what the power beam is, and the closest thing I could think of was a pulsed energy projectile, which would make it a laser. I'm not sure what X uses in terms of his default beam. I've read it's compressed solar energy. If it's anything like compressed air, then that would mean this energy is kept under pressure greater than atmospheric pressure.

Technically speaking, if X is using solar energy, then his beam weapon should be firing microwaves, but microwaves would be able to pass through solid objects, so if it's energy, then it would need to be something like photons, since those cannot pass through solid objects. They can pass through transparent and translucent objects, but in order to penetrate something like a wall, it'd need to smash through it. My only issue right now is that these are also described as "bullets", meaning that if this is compressed solar energy, then it doesn't necessarily mean it has to travel at the speed of light, since it would behave like an object made of mass, not energy.

If you used X from X8, then I would suspect we have two weapons with which speed could be applied. The thunder dancer could be considered to travel 224,000 mi/h, and the shining ray to be 186,282 mi/s. If you used X4, X would have one laser weapon. This incarnation would have infinite use with uncharged attacks, whereas the use of the fourth armor in incarnations after reduce the consumption by 50%. If you're content with using X8, then I'll use Samus' incarnation from Metroid: Other M.

As for speed, if you're going to use X8, then from the looks of it, the Hermes armor will double X's running speed and quadruple it with X-Drive active.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:03 am

X's buster shots actually do phase through objects. In fact, this seems to be a specific design choice since even in the classic series, Mega Man's shots could phase through walls while Bass' could not. On a similar note, Axl's shots do not pierce through walls while X's shots can in X8. The Falcon Armor from X5 is also referred to as having a piercing function with its charged shots.

I don't think the shots travel at the speed of light for X or Samus' default beams. X was shown to fire one shot in the Day of Sigma and the X3 intro, and it moved just like a regular projectile. Samus' beams could also be observed in numerous cutscenes. The one where she meets Dark Samus' for the first time immediately comes to mind.

I just viewed a video of the X8 skills. You're right. They're really not that great compared to X4. Most of them have horrible range, and don't really seem all that great even if the Hermes Armor is present. X4 it is. I don't think the Shining Ray should move at light speed. Sure, it's technically a light-based weapon, but all it creates are essentially just fireworks over a very limited area. Nevermind that physical light present in the backdrops do not behave like the ray at all. The Thunder Dancer does behave like an electrical weapon, so I have no issues believing it moves as fast as electricity. Lightning though? I'm not sure.

Anyway, since we are discussing the X4 arsenal, what do you think of the Double Cyclone? I don't know any winds that can rip apart infantry units the way X's does. The move description says that it "fires vacuum cyclones" yet when X fires it, green energy emerges from his hands. Interestingly, the Double Cyclone shares similarities with the "Plasma Cyclone" attack from Model H in ZX Advent as opposed to the regular tornado from model HX which resembles the Storm Tornado from X1.

I'm going to attach the X vs. Zero fight for reference on X's fighting style.

https://youtu.be/3Q8u3qMqjUQ?t=1m58s

First off, he starts by equipping the Ultimate Armor, which is the upgraded version of the Force/Fourth Armor. Immediately after the battle starts, X fires a charged shot closely followed by him as though he was using his body as a projectile. He doesn't use special weapons until a little bit of his Life Energy is drained after which he mixes it up between charged shots and charged special weapons.

The non-canon Vile scenario of Maverick Hunter X also gives us an idea of how X engages in combat outside of player control.

https://youtu.be/QqQ1rpf-Vv4?t=30s

Here X already shows up with an armor equipped and immediately teleports away, doing this quite often in a hit and run strategy. He also has no problem using Maverick weapons like the charged Rolling Shield, which increases his defense. When near death, X demonstrates the ability to increase his power to the point where his regular shots are charged, and his special weapons are enhanced even further. An interesting feature of the fight is how X is shown using multiple special weapons at once.

In the Day of Sigma, X's charged shot is shown to be a long coherent beam. This is also the case in the Vile cutscene.

Here is the intro to X3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNL6fQysl08

Apparently X's uncharged shots have something like an EMP effect, since it disables helicopter mechaniloids and destroys Launch Octopus' projectiles just by passing by them.
0:48 shows another quick coherent beam fired from the X buster.
0:53 has X running from magma(?)
1:12 has X dancing around Vile's gunfire.
1:53 has X armor switching for the occasion.

EDIT: Finally found a description of a supersonic enemy! It's in the Zero series though. Fenri Lunaedge's description reads as such:

"Military commander during the Elf Wars, he is back in action thanks to Weil's handiwork, dishing out attacks at supersonic speeds." - Mega Man Zero 4 manual, page 25

https://cdn02.nintendo-europe.com/media ... _ES_IT.pdf

Here's the fight against Fenri Lunaedge: https://youtu.be/UzWruxuymtM?t=3m30s

His "supersonic" movements are actually pretty slow compared to some bosses like Harpuia in Zero 2. I hate to use powerscaling, but since X and Zero fought dead evenly in X5 (with Zero's original body), then it stands to reason that X should be capable of the same thing, which is to say, physically keep up with supersonic enemies. There is also the fact that Harpuia directly scales off of X since he is literally a 5th of X's power in the lore. Problem is that this still relies on gameplay. Although it's hard to deny that Fenri Lunaedge is one of the slower bosses despite his "supersonic" attacks.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:38 pm

Interesting fact on Mega Man's X-buster passing through walls. There would need to be a reason why this is. As I said before, photons would have to bust through solid objects that are neither transparent, nor translucent, or I would at least think the luminosity would need to be greatly increased to make its way through. The Sun produces all sorts of electromagnetic radiation. I wouldn't be surprised if it produces every kind. Only certain waves will stop once it hits an object. We know that X uses solar energy. Solar energy is defined as "radiant light and heat from the Sun harnessed using a range of ever-evolving technologies such as solar heating, photovoltaics, solar thermal energy, solar architecture and artificial photosynthesis. [1][2]" (Solar energy - Wikipedia) For all we know, X is using a solar-pumped laser.

I'm really not sure what to think, other than that Samus' power beam is firing electromagnetic radiation of some kind, and since it's energy. If we go through all the types of energy, radiant energy looks like the only energy that could be actually considered in terms of the object being fired. The power beam would use kinetic (due to its motion), potential (because of its reference point), thermal (the motion of the particles), and gravitational energy (its association with the gravitational field), but this doesn’t necessarily mean this is what the power beam is made of. Radiant energy, or electromagnetic radiation, seems to be the only kind of energy it would be made of. After all, even bullets use kinetic, potential, thermal, and gravitational energy. Again, I'm iffy on the matter. If you want to read what I wrote, you can see it here.

That's too bad that X8 wasn't the one you wanted to work with. I'm not sure what the thunder dancer's speed would actually be. I'm really not sure what the speed of an electrolaser is, either. I've tried looking these things up in the past, such as "electrolaser muzzle velocity" or "how fast does an electrolaser travel". I suppose if we went with the speed of an electron, then that woul'd mean it travels 2,200 km/s, or 2,200,000 m/s, which is 6,413.99 times the speed of sound, according to this site. That's faster than lightning, which travels Mach 291.95.

Tornadoes destroy things with wind speed and debris, but a human who is caught in a tornado will be lifted into the air and while debris would be unpleasant to get hit by, it seems injury and/or death occurs because the person is thrown from the tornado, rather than being pulled and ripped by it. According to this, a wind speed at 500 mi/h would peel the pavement off the parking lot. The funny thing about the "vacuum cyclone" is that a vacuum creates a partial vacuum to suck up dust and is collected by a dust bag or cyclone. Anyway, the low-end wind speed of a cyclone would be 130 mi/h. I'm not so sure about destruction caused by this as I am certain that the acceleration of the object carried away would suffer from impact upon hitting the ground.

In Metroid: Other M, Samus will encounter creatures called Volfons. From the art gallery (page 2), it uses a kamaitachi's attack, which "Flies about like a hurricane and slashes up the enemy." It also has a tornado attack. A kamaitachi is "a Japanese yōkai (a ghost). They appear riding on dust devils, and they cut people using the nails on both their hands that are like sickles. One would receive a sharp wound from it, but there is no pain. [. . .] Devilish winds that would cut people are told about in the Chūbu, Kinki, and other regions. There are many legends passed down in snowy regions, and there are some regions that call whirlwinds themselves 'kamaitachi.' On occasions of cold wind and other times, they are also a strange event of where one would fall over and get an injury on the legs."

I wouldn't be surprised if volfons themselves are supposed to be like this, as they're based after these supernatural creatures. (I just decided to add this into Wikitroid.) What's even more interesting is that looking this up from a Japanese to English translation, it says, "type Japanese folkloric monster (yokai), thought to be a trio of weasels who appear in a whirlwind to cut their victim." Volfons come in threes in Metroid: Other M. The second definition is "cut caused by whirlwind", or as you might be aware of, razor wind as in Pokémon. So I won't be surprised if this is what Mega Man X4 is using. I don't see any way wind itself would harm Samus, but this attack is probably manipulating wind in a way to where it can cut, and Samus is vulnerable to sharp objects, much like X himself. I suspect that if these cuts were from snowy regions, it may have had to do with wind chill. I'm not sure if you've ever experienced wind chill, but it's very painful. Or it could have come about as a result of blizzards.

I'm not sure if X's X-buster behaves like an EMP, but if we went with the idea that X is shooting microwaves, then it would be effective against unshielded electronics. Samus has dealt with EMPs, however. In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Dark Pirate Commandos utilize experimental EMP grenades stolen from the space pirates. This will harm Samus and cause her visor to scramble temporarily, but it won't prevent her from functioning in the way an EMP would fry an electronic device. As for X running away from magma, I was assuming that as well. Typically, magma doesn't travel that fast. Basalt would flow faster because it's not as viscous, but considering that it appears X was in a lava tube, "on a steep slope, the main body of the flow can reach velocities >30 km/hour." (USGS) That's 18.63 mi/h. X was running faster than that, so we could work with 20 mi/h.

I'm not too worried about power scaling, and I'm fine with X being able to react to supersonic objects. The question is, what is each of these characters respective reaction time? If Samus can see sound traveling 1 foot per second, then that would put her at 1 millisecond, since sound travels 34.3 centimeters (0.343 m.) per 1 millisecond (0.001 s). She also has her precognitive abilities, but this seems to be when she senses danger. If she doesn't sense it, then she won't react to the attack before it occurs.
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Re: Mega Man X vs. Samus Aran

Postby theobserver » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:02 pm

I was watching the link about the laser bullet and was surprised at the similarities between sci-fi DEW and a real life "pulse" laser. I knew that lasers traveled at light speed in a vacuum, but I always that that it would be as a coherent beam of light similar to when a laser pointer is used in fog. The similarities between the Power Beam, X-buster, etc. are definitely there, but the in-game representations of these weapons don't really correspond to that speed. The source that you linked says that these laser pulses took place in femtoseconds, which certainly do not look to be the case in either of the franchises we're representing. I think it might be safer to say that the Power Beam and X-buster shots travel at the speed they are portrayed in canon, which is to say, that they are no different from bullets except that they are somehow made out of pure energy. Even with Samus' precognition and X's reactions, I find it hard to believe that they can react to light speed projectiles, when the projectiles they are seen to encounter in canon are consistently around supersonic. The idea that the PB and XB both use concussive shots sounds more plausible than saying that Samus and X can somehow dodge light speed DEW even when their weapons are not portrayed to behave in that manner.

I don't really know if the Thunder Dancer behaves like an electrolaser simply because of its limited range. The Tri-Thunder from X5 I think fits the definition better, as it resembles the Thunder Beam from Mega Man 1. Even then, the description leads me to believe that attacks such as these are only elementally flavored bullets. That depends on whether or not "super magnetic energy shot" translates to an "electromagnetic discharge."

"VOLT KRAKEN
Formerly a Reploid Hunter, Volt Kraken resigned because he has doubts about
his job. He then became a researcher and led a peaceful life far from
fighting. His weapon Tri-Thunder, an enhanced version of his tentacles, is
a super magnetic energy shot."
- Mega Man X5 manual, page 18

"This weapon discharges an electrical shock in three directions, which
transforms into an energy ball on contact."
- Tri-Thunder description

"Zero jumps and makes an anti-air attack with thunder."
- Denjin description

Out of the three desciptions, only Zero's is described as "thunder" even though it behaves and travels at around the same speed as X's Tri-Thunder. The only difference I suppose is that Zero is establishing the circuit with his blade, much like the Raikousen move in X8. That move actually requires physical movement on Zero's part, so I think that shows his ability to physically move as fast as the projectiles he deals with. X does something similar by shooting enemy bullets out of the air, or even his/Zero's own charge shots in order to create a spread shot effect. Honestly, Zero seems to be much easier to gather feats for than X simply because his techniques require more physical movement, and because the Mega Man Zero series gives more snippets outside of gameplay.

I'm aware of Samus' defenses against EMP weaponry. Although it won't shut down her systems, high enough amounts of electrical energy does seem to affect her adversely, such as EMP grenades, or Gandrayda's attacks.

Where does Samus see sound traveling at 1 foot per second? Is it with the Echo Visor?

EDIT: I forgot that like Zero, X can also slice bullets with the Z-saber in X6. This can be observed with the Hover Gunners in the intro to X6. I'm using this sequence as a reference, since there is a specific animation where the Z-saber can slice through a three round burst of the Hover Gunner's bullets when at point blank range. I guess my question to you, Mea, is how much of gameplay can we interpret as canon? Specific animations are there, and they appear consistent, so there must be some developer intent there when things are put in like X and Zero slicing bullets, and "supersonic" enemies looking to travel at the same speed as the main characters. I don't know if all that means is that X and Zero can react to these, or if they can physically move as fast as these projectiles. When "supersonic" enemies move at around the same speed as the player character and bullets, and when other characters (like Harpuia) move so much faster they appear like a blur, there must be some correlation to movement speed in there.
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