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Kain feat and ability discussion

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Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:54 am

Kains mind and processing infinity.

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This is separate to reaction speed as posted below, this is more advanced and is more high speed analysis. And by high speed, I mean infinity fast. Kain literally looks into the Chronoplast, an infinite timeline of possibilities and makes sense of it. He says as much in the SR 2 intro;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZMxCkBv_4&t=0m38s

“I did not fathom the true power of knowledge, to know the future Raziel, to see its paths and streams tracing out into the infinite, as a man, I could never have contained such forbidden truths “


So Kain confirms that he can actual process literally infinite information. The ifninite paths of time being the information hes faced with, and he actually says he contains/knows the future, truths from processing infinite information. This is further covered by the developer of the series Daniel Cabuco;

“Moebius sees the time stream the same way Kain does: through the Chronoplast. He’s the Guardian of the Time Pillar so his ability is separate from the Elder God’s.
Before you think,”Well that’s not such a great thing then. Not a reall ‘power’ per se.” Think about this: When he looks into the Chronoplast, he sees the various weavings of time, wrapping, unfolding and refolding, and is able to take it in without going mad. Only Kain, as an immortal vampire, had the time to sort out what he sees in the Chronoplast, ”


As you can see, Daniel expands on this, saying that you would literally go mad if you were not an immortal vampire or some such and confirms Kain sorts out this infinity that he sees, Daniel goes on to comment further;

“Remember Kain’s line “As a man, I could never contain such forbidden truths” at the end of SR1/intro to SR2. Infinite possibility makes your eyes go all cross eyed.”


So Kain does literally look into infinity, and somehow, manages to make sense of it but not only that, you have to look into the game itself and the events to find out how impressive this is. First, Kain gets through infinity in at most a century or two, he says as much when he talks to Raziel and tells him he found the chamber centuries ago. He also reads it correctly, because by the end of the game he succeeds in finding his destiny, despite being faced against someone like Moebius who can do the same as him, if not on a higher degree and the Elder God, who perceives time as a constant (he is eternal throughout time, tomorrow and yesterday are the same to him temporally speaking). Yet despite all this, he masters both of them with his machinations.

How would this benefit him in a fight?

Some of Kains powers, namely telekinesis, his mind powers, teleportation and his transformation into various forms such as mist form are "at will" abilities, he merely has to will it to happen. Consider the above, although infinity is not possible to plot mathematically the smallest unit of time is a Planck time unit, or rather the time it takes for light to cross one Planck length. This means that no matter how much information, no matter how many attacks or how fast his opponents think they are going, Kains mind can process at such a rate that as long as he is not faced with infinite data he will essentially percieve and process all of this before any of his opponents do anything.

It is a sort of advanced reaction capability, allowing Kain to process what he is seeing to a high degree before other actions. Due to his "at will" abilities being on a whim, he could effectively attack his opponents in this time frame, which to them would be like countless attacks, mental ones within the first Planck unit.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:00 am

Mea quidem sententia wrote:For this reason, Kitten Lord.

"Genius is a promontory jutting out into the infinite." - Victor Hugo

Observe the same phrasing as Kain in the bold. Interestingly, even Kain refers to paths and streams before uttering that phrase. Look up "promontory" if you must.

I'll try to cover more tomorrow.



Observe the same phrasing as Kain in the bold.


Kain was talking about timelines, something real in Lok, not conceptual like a whimsical phrase about genius.

even Kain refers to paths and streams


Well yes, because timelines each have a path, a beginning and an end etc.

The context your missing here is that neither Kain, or Daniel who quotes him, confirming what he said as more than just a fancy are talking about real things, literal things like timelines, time travel, sorting timelines and the eventual result of Kains efforts can be seen, it happens.

Daniel even goes on to quote Kain, other fictions etc to outline what he is saying as an answer to a Q&A (not just a whimsical story or anecdote) but an answer to the question of how Kain, the Elder God and Moebius perceive time.

To add to this, he goes further still by quoting how Kain could not do this as a man, and Kains own comment on how he could not conceive infinity as a man either, but anyone can conceive or understand a lowly metaphor as you like to claim, you do not need to be an enhanced/evolved being to do that.

Infinite was used in common discussion, not as a well placed phrase or line like yours about what Kain can actually do, the word has an explicit use and meaning to be infinite, which adds up perfectly with something not only a man could not conceive or sort like Kain can, but also with how timelines and time itself is conceived in general use anyway. Time is one of the few things in a scientific discussion one may consider as infinite which was the subject matter here, and in LoK, alternative timelines with infinite possiblities that make up the time stream are not theory, their real.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:06 pm

Let's just delete my post. Why continue with that?

I am going to request some things from you, Kitten Lord.

  1. Supply me with videos demonstrating Kain's ability to process things in Planck time.
  2. Supply me with videos demonstrating Kain's processing ability in combat.
  3. Get me an MRI of Kain to show his brain's ability to process information.
  4. Show me that we should have any reason to think light entering Kain's eyes will travel at a faster rate. Remember, nanoseconds are very slow to Planck time.

If you fail to do these, then I will not continue.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:47 pm

Supply me with videos demonstrating Kain's ability to process things in Planck time.
Supply me with videos demonstrating Kain's processing ability in combat.


You know I cannot show these two things, that however does not mean it cannot happen. We discuss countless things in a vs that characters have never actually done because circumstances have not required it. Kains feat happens off-screen, and is described and outlined by development but not displayed. Just like we have to rely on statements for many powers including Supermans abilities.

Get me an MRI of Kain to show his brain's ability to process information.


His brain is unlikely to have anything to do with it, I am sure an MRI scan would leave us with nothing because Kain is a spirit creature more than a physical one.


Show me that we should have any reason to think light entering Kain's eyes will travel at a faster rate. Remember, nanoseconds are very slow to Planck time.


Kain does not rely on his physical eyes to see, he perceives the mult-dimensional Elder God who cannot be perceived physically and can traverse the world and has access to all his senses even when little more than water vapour. So light being too slow may not be an issue.

If you fail to do these, then I will not continue.


Well so be it, but you have asked for an unusual set of sources, of course I am not surprised to find Kain or any of his feats under vastly more scrutiny than other characters.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:59 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:You know I cannot show these two things, that however does not mean it cannot happen. We discuss countless things in a vs that characters have never actually done because circumstances have not required it. Kains feat happens off-screen, and is described and outlined by development but not displayed. Just like we have to rely on statements for many powers including Supermans abilities.


Actually, I wasn't aware that you couldn't provide me those two things. I'm not concerned with circumstantial events. I would have expected something to support what you're saying through a feat.

Kitten Lord wrote:His brain is unlikely to have anything to do with it, I am sure an MRI scan would leave us with nothing because Kain is a spirit creature more than a physical one.


I didn't actually expect you to follow through with this. Kain is a fictional character, but I only brought that up because if it was possible, that'd be the only other way to prove it.

Kitten Lord wrote:Kain does not rely on his physical eyes to see, he perceives the mult-dimensional Elder God who cannot be perceived physically and can traverse the world and has access to all his senses even when little more than water vapour. So light being too slow may not be an issue.


There is no correlation between perceiving some extra-dimensional area and seeing things. Light enters through the pupils. That's how sight works.

Kitten Lord wrote:Well so be it, but you have asked for an unusual set of sources, of course I am not surprised to find Kain or any of his feats under vastly more scrutiny than other characters.


All right. You missed the time when I scrutinized Samus.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:05 pm

Mea quidem sententia wrote:


Actually, I wasn't aware that you couldn't provide me those two things.


You must have wondered why I would ask a developer about something I am unclear on if it was shown outright on-screen? Or why I had not shown this before after all these debates? That would have been the answer.

I'm not concerned with circumstantial events


Well you should be because their relevant. If were told superman can fly faster than light, and yet on panel he just restrains some humans at slow speed we do not assume he cannot go faster than light just because he did not require it.


I would have expected something to support what you're saying through a feat.


The feat happened, just not on-screen. Its like if a writer says their character did something, we do not have to actually see a picture or video of it to have happened. The entire game fulcrums around what Kain does in the chronoplast.


That's how sight works.


Not for Kain because he functions fine as vapour like I said, just like he functions fine without a heart, brain or anything for that matter.

All right. You missed the time when I scrutinized Samus.


Not to this degree, with Samus you pull ideas out of things you find online, guessing at what power her weapons use, and countless other things the games are apparently unclear on with its technobabble.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Alpha or Omega » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:06 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Not to this degree, with Samus you pull ideas out of things you find online, guessing at what power her weapons use, and countless other things the games are apparently unclear on with its technobabble.

He has done so as previous aliases.

With Zebes' gravity, it had the numbers thanks to the stated mass Zebes had. Mea Quidem Sententia was against it and he pointed out that it had water, and the acceleration of gravity on people was different.
He was against the Metroid manga's canonicity to the point of frustration. He wanted the director's input on it and didn't accept statement from other Nintendo officials nor the fact that it was on the Japanese Metroid website.

I guess you can say the plasma beam being an electrolaser instead of simply being a laser is a little bit unclear, but it does have an electrical current and plasma.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:48 pm

@Kitten Lord
The circumstances are different. We have seen Superman go FTL. He escaped a black hole and has been able to travel past the light barrier. He's also been able to travel to different planets unaided. So we know Superman wouldn't need to use it every time, but we never see Kain use this Planck time you speak of. Ever. You're left with a word that you and I disagree on in spite of the figurative language Kain uses. "Paths" and "streams", "weavings" and "wrappings" and "unfolding". Figurative! Then there is Raziel, who tells Kain to cease his "elaborate metaphors" after Kain utters, "streams of destinies" and tells Raziel not to get caught in Moebius' "net". So, because I just decided to discontinue with a word that we disagree on and disregard Planck time, I expected feats. I won't partake in this any further. It is an impasse.

As for scrutiny to this degree, you may perceive to be such because of how often matches involving Kain are. I don't hate Kain or Raziel. I find the story interesting. My long time friend has played the games and enjoyed them. My wife has played the games and enjoyed them. I like vampires for the most part. (In Skyrim I preferred werewolves. The werewolves in Underworld are also way better than the humanized vampires.) I'm not out to get you or hate on LoK. In fact, there have only been two things I have contended regarding Kain and that's been his durability and reaction time/thought process. With Samus it was Zebes' gravity, the terawatt being terajoules for the volt driver, the annihilator beam having energy equal to that of the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan, the Magmaul having temperatures equal to a star, Samus being able to freeze a star, react to light, &c. I've debated outside of FactPile, but yeah.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Kitten Lord » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:23 am

Mea quidem sententia wrote:



The circumstances are different. We have seen Superman go FTL.


Have we seen it? Because we cannot perceive faster than light objects and his comics are just that, still images, so at best, all we can do is try and equate what we see with what the narrator or writer tells us is happening. Now, me? That is perfectly fine, if a writer or developer says something is happening, like Superman is going faster than light then fine, hes going faster than light even if nothing adds up with what I would think is the case but as far as Kain goes, your not happy with this, apparently Kain has to actually demonstrate something even if we cannot fathom it. Likewise I am fine with Daniel saying Kain is perceiving infinite possibilities, which is added to by all his others comments relative to his statement about time and how it requires something special that Kain and Moebius have to do it.

You're left with a word that you and I disagree on in spite of the figurative language Kain uses. "Paths" and "streams", "weavings" and "wrappings" and "unfolding". Figurative!


If we were talking about Kain alone, I would agree but that is why we go to the developers and ask them to shed light on things unclear, and when they also say "infinite" or "immortal" or "cannot die", and a number of others tings they have been asked then hand waving the characters as being figurative falls flat. As I said before, figurative speach and metaphors make sense when its a story, and Kain using them may work but not an explicit answer to a Q&A to clarify things, thats where a metaphor has no place, less so with this context.

It is an impasse.


If I believed this I would not mind, agreering to disagree is fine but if past events are anything to go by this is not the case. You start the argument every time I bring up this feat, hence why we have a thread here now.

I'm not out to get you or hate on LoK


Why does it seem like you spend more time trying to counter LoK related arguments than the others on here? For example you can fill pages with arguments of LoK, but all that nonsense recently in the DBZ thread barely got a response from you. You enter a thread, make a comment on kain that you disagree and then ignore everything else like trying to downplay Kain is the only interest.
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Re: Kain feat and ability discussion

Postby Alpha or Omega » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:12 am

I feel like that a part of this argument is veering towards reputation or credibility rather than Kain.

Kitten Lord wrote:Why does it seem like you spend more time trying to counter LoK related arguments than the others on here? For example you can fill pages with arguments of LoK, but all that nonsense recently in the DBZ thread barely got a response from you. You enter a thread, make a comment on kain that you disagree and then ignore everything else like trying to downplay Kain is the only interest.

Now to be fair, that's because for LoK you go on beyond a page or two of debating while something like Dragon Ball ended like in one or two pages either due to lack of support for Dragon Ball or concession.
You were there when he debated against Zack Fair and that was beyond a page or two because there were people willing to defend their points. The pro-Zack Fair side had FriendlySociopath and the anti-Zack Fair side was Mea and you. That went beyond a page or two because people were willing to defend their points.
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