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The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

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The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:08 am

Rule #1 - All canon is to be treated equally unless there is sufficient reason to classify some canon as higher than others.
There tends to be the opinion that cut-scenes are higher canon than game play, but this is only a consensus made by message boards that are involved with debating fictional characters, not canon itself. Whether it be cut-scenes, dialogue, in-game descriptions, or even game play itself, all things should be treated equally unless it can be reasoned sufficiently as to why these higher canon are actually higher.

Rule #2 - No matter how much you might favor a character, consistent calculations should come first.
Recently, I did a calculation regarding Samus' missiles. My calculation ended up with a missile having a TNT equivalence of 22 kilograms. However, the amount of energy from this alone would be enough to produce an earthquake with a magnitude of 2.1 if this same energy was applied to the Richter scale. Considering that missiles never cause a minor quake, but super missiles do, I had to calculate this again to a more reasonable number, which is now a TNT equivalent of 7.16 kilograms. If your calculations aren't consistent, it is possible that the series you're calculating from isn't consistent, which is quite possible. It's also possible that a biased attitude will cause you to prefer inflated numbers, rather than consistent numbers. Never let the latter occur.

Rule #3 - Always doubt your calculations.
The best way to improve your calculations—whether for better or for worse—is to doubt and calculate again and again. Present your calculations to others to let them try it out with their own method. Simply working off your method may give them the same calculation, but that's because the same method is being used, not because your calculation is necessarily correct. I cannot tell you how many times I've reworked my calculations, and while I may not like it at times, I go with it because I want to be accurate as possible.

Rule #4 - Cite your sources.
This could be applied to sources that assist one in performing mathematical equations or even explaining physical law, but it is preferable to use canon itself and work from there.

Rule #5 - Narrative is more important than physics.
If a calculation is inconsistent with the narrative, then it should be readily dismissed. To present an example, among those who treat Kirby as a very powerful character in that he can split Pop Star in half, the actual story doesn't coincide with this, nor is this an event that ever actually took place, nor does it make sense for a character like Kirby to need the assistance of King Dedede in Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, as OriginalA put it. To do so would mean that in the time Kirby needed King Dedede's help to smash stone walls, Kirby must have been humoring King Dedede, since we know Kirby can crack Pop Star in half. Or these stone walls are much more durable than Pop Star itself. If such were the case, then to prevent Kirby from ever having a chance at defeating evil, evil could just construct fortresses made of this material, knowing full well that Kirby's abilities are for naught and the fate of Pop Star is doomed.

Rule #6 - Canon is more important than physics.
So you know that the Flash is running faster than light, huh? Well, that doesn't mean much because while he might have an infinite mass punch, he's not generating infinite force. Once we get to a point of physics where it falls apart, there's just no use in using any. It doesn't matter if it's impossible, this is clearly not following physical law, so physical law isn't going to pertain to it. All one can glean from this is that the physical law in that universe behaves differently from our own.

Rule #7 - Don't assume too much.
If you want a really good calculation, don't assume too much about what it is you're calculating. The more you assume, the more unstable your calculation is. It's understandable that assuming is meant to give a general idea, but if someone else does the same calculation as you and doesn't assume as much, and if the calculation ends up being smaller than what your results were, who do you think reasonable people will be more likely to listen to?

Rule #8 - In the end, all calculations are ultimately fanon.
Canon isn't as exhaustive as people make it out to be. It's especially unnecessary to even give more credit to producers or developers where none is needed. Just look at Game Theory. Quite honestly, no one needs to accept your calculation if they don't want to. It's not canon, even though it may have derived from canon. That might sound like an unreasonable thing to do, but everyone has their own interpretations. To think yours is correct is to subject yourself to cognitive bias, such as confirmation bias and naïve realism.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:31 pm

Good rules
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:45 am

Yes very useful. Although I would still argue against rule 1. Cut scenes are considered are a higher canon as a standard because they are purely a way of telling the story, the lore while the gameplay is a way for the player to enjoy it. Which may include mechanics that detract or are diverse from the canon itself.

Characters who are in canon extremely fast or physically powerful may appear far weaker in gameplay to make the game challening as opposed to their true power as stated or described in the stories. The reverse is sometimes true, for example a lot of games set in moderrn conflicts like Call of Duty give players a healing factor, actually making them more powerful than they are in the lore.

I will always consider cutscenes, developer statements or lore from the books over gameplay.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:13 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Yes very useful. Although I would still argue against rule 1. Cut scenes are considered are a higher canon as a standard because they are purely a way of telling the story, the lore while the gameplay is a way for the player to enjoy it. Which may include mechanics that detract or are diverse from the canon itself.

Characters who are in canon extremely fast or physically powerful may appear far weaker in gameplay to make the game challening as opposed to their true power as stated or described in the stories. The reverse is sometimes true, for example a lot of games set in moderrn conflicts like Call of Duty give players a healing factor, actually making them more powerful than they are in the lore.

I will always consider cutscenes, developer statements or lore from the books over gameplay.


All that tells me is that if cut-scenes are superior, then you shouldn't use game play for feats.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:20 pm

You should because while Cutscenes are superior, they do not cover the whole game. Obviously when concerning video games, the gameplay is not "non-canon" but it is also not displayed to the perfection of a cutscene so if a cutscene says something or shows something to a contradiction to the gameplay, then the cutscene wins out.

I think it makes sense and most people on these boards have been using that idea for years. Reason being because as I covered, gameplay can give or remove statistics to the main characters for the sake of the player.

If you did not use gameplay for feats then some games which have very little to no cutscenes could not be debated at all which would not make sense.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:56 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:You should because while Cutscenes are superior, they do not cover the whole game. Obviously when concerning video games, the gameplay is not "non-canon" but it is also not displayed to the perfection of a cutscene so if a cutscene says something or shows something to a contradiction to the gameplay, then the cutscene wins out.

I think it makes sense and most people on these boards have been using that idea for years. Reason being because as I covered, gameplay can give or remove statistics to the main characters for the sake of the player.

If you did not use gameplay for feats then some games which have very little to no cutscenes could not be debated at all which would not make sense.


It doesn't matter if cut-scenes don't cover the whole game. Cut-scenes aren't games. So if you think cut-scenes are superior, then you should uphold that superiority, otherwise by using game play, you are making the two equal. Game play is the majority of a video game, so placing a hierarchy where game play is inferior to everything else means you're making a huge chunk (like 95%) meaningless. You don't get to pick and choose what's canon.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:54 pm

It doesn't matter if cut-scenes don't cover the whole game. Cut-scenes aren't games.


It does matter because you cannot use cut-scenes alone. That would be ignoring a huge part of the game.


by using game play, you are making the two equal.


This makes no sense at all....I am not sure what your getting at here. You can use both, but one is above the other, so if the cutscenes contradict the gameplay then the cut scene reigns. As its existence is literally to tell the story or give information.

What your suggesting sounds alike to ignoring the entire game, or an entire show, just because developers or the editors of a fiction veto,retcon or contradict a portion of their work. Obviously if the writer of a story tells you something that may be at odds to what you gathered from the source material, their word is word of god, and is therefore above what you gathered but does not necesserily make the whole piece of fiction worthless or unsuable. Merely the contradicted piece.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:23 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:It does matter because you cannot use cut-scenes alone. That would be ignoring a huge part of the game.


Then you're making both equal. In fact, game play is integral. It is the medium you use the majority of the time. If anything, that makes game play higher. I'm willing to bet most feats from video games come from game play alone.

Kitten Lord wrote:This makes no sense at all....I am not sure what your getting at here. You can use both, but one is above the other, so if the cutscenes contradict the gameplay then the cut scene reigns. As its existence is literally to tell the story or give information.


Why do cut-scenes reign? Story-telling isn't enough. For example, any game you play, the story is unfolding. I have to walk towards the area to the Southern Swamp before Tatl is reminded of finding Skull Kid before he stole Majora's Mask. Samus must enter a boss room leading to Kraid from game play to cut-scene. The story is interwoven. But what of games without cut-scenes? I doubt you think these types of games lack a story, or even information.

Kitten Lord wrote:What your suggesting sounds alike to ignoring the entire game, or an entire show, just because developers or the editors of a fiction veto,retcon or contradict a portion of their work. Obviously if the writer of a story tells you something that may be at odds to what you gathered from the source material, their word is word of god, and is therefore above what you gathered but does not necesserily make the whole piece of fiction worthless or unsuable. Merely the contradicted piece.


We both know that is not what I agree with. I have no intention of ignoring anything. What we should be doing is taking all data and comparing them, and letting the majority outweigh the minority. Otherwise, by assuming there is a hierarchy, game play has no chance at having any use.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Kitten Lord » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:22 am

Then you're making both equal. In fact, game play is integral. It is the medium you use the majority of the time. If anything, that makes game play higher. I'm willing to bet most feats from video games come from game play alone.


Why am i making both equal? Just by using both? that makes no sense. A detective can use multiple forms of evidence to determine the truth of a situation, a witness, DNA in the area and what not but that does not make all the evidence equal in value to the investigation. One piece of evidence may be more useful than another, in the case of gaming,its the cutscenes. Also why would something being a majority make it higher canon?

Why do cut-scenes reign?


As I explained. They are bereft of the trappings that twist rules in-game purely for the sake of gameplay. Gameplay of more or less every game is filled full of common tropes that make no sense in the canon but are there for the players amusement.

We both know that is not what I agree with.


Then you should not agree with the idea you mentioned before about ignoring a portion of a game just because one superior or higher canon piece contradicts it.

game play has no chance at having any use.


Yes it does, not every game has cutscenes that contradict gameplay. Lets take your Link example. Link in a cutscene may be defeated by a single blow by Ganon but in the game, you have gameplay mechanics such as "lives" and "hearts", which are just health bars that allow players to survive some hits. This is a single contradiction, the cutscene reigns as being bereft o the trappings I mentioned earlier, and we are given pure, lore based circumstances not touched by mechanics as the players themselves and anything build for their enjoyment is not canon to the lore of the game.
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Re: The FactPiler's Guide to Properly Calculating

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:13 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Why am i making both equal? Just by using both? that makes no sense. A detective can use multiple forms of evidence to determine the truth of a situation, a witness, DNA in the area and what not but that does not make all the evidence equal in value to the investigation. One piece of evidence may be more useful than another, in the case of gaming,its the cutscenes. Also why would something being a majority make it higher canon?


It does when the detective is going over the evidence. "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." "Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth." "Data! Data! Data!" he cried impatiently. "I can't make bricks without clay." (Sherlock Holmes) You seem to have forgotten that I said, "All canon is to be treated equally unless there is sufficient reason to classify some canon as higher than others." A detective doesn't just find evidence and consider some evidence to be higher than others until he has gone through all of it. Scientists don't do this, either. So the idea of a hierarchy is completely unscientific. You have failed to prove why cut-scenes are better than game play, especially at all times. Something that is gleaned from every source you can find that is consistent is what makes it higher canon. If a cut-scene portrayed something that was not supported by in-game description, character dialogue, and game play, then it wouldn't matter what the cut-scene shows because it's been outweighed. It's about consistency.

Kitten Lord wrote:As I explained. They are bereft of the trappings that twist rules in-game purely for the sake of gameplay. Gameplay of more or less every game is filled full of common tropes that make no sense in the canon but are there for the players amusement.


What trappings? What twist of rules? I don't see why tropes should be dismissed. You're making assertions, but failing to prove anything.

Kitten Lord wrote:Then you should not agree with the idea you mentioned before about ignoring a portion of a game just because one superior or higher canon piece contradicts it.


I don't. That's hierarchy. What I'm proposing is using all source material. All of it. Then we go through all of it and determine what's consistent.

Kitten Lord wrote:Yes it does, not every game has cutscenes that contradict gameplay. Lets take your Link example. Link in a cutscene may be defeated by a single blow by Ganon but in the game, you have gameplay mechanics such as "lives" and "hearts", which are just health bars that allow players to survive some hits. This is a single contradiction, the cutscene reigns as being bereft o the trappings I mentioned earlier, and we are given pure, lore based circumstances not touched by mechanics as the players themselves and anything build for their enjoyment is not canon to the lore of the game.


Hearts by themselves are a game mechanic, but what they represent is not. If you cannot tell the difference between a game mechanic and what's canon just from game play alone, then your skill at gleaning information is poor. What heart containers represent is life energy. This is why if Link's health is low, he can sleep to rest, or sit to rest. Both instances restore his hearts. He can step into a hot spring because he is soothing his wounds and weariness through heat therapy. He can drink milk to refresh himself. Milk provides kilocalories through fats, carbohydrates, and protein. Calcium will repair his bones. When Link visits his grandma again after being away for some time, she's not feeling well because she's so worried about Link and Aryll. She doesn't realize Link is there, probably due to mental fatigue. Her heath has deteriorated, but when Link returns to her with a fairy, the fairy heals her of these. But cut-scenes aren't necessary to understand any of this. We can see this in cut-scenes, manuals, in-game descriptions, and game play. Even if we removed cut-scenes, we could just take Ocarina of Time alone and glean all of this based on manuals, in-game descriptions, and game play.
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