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Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:34 am

I assume having skin as hard as or harder than Diamond would have several other ramifications beyond just being hard, I wonder how something as durable as diamond would react to heat, same with pressure, such high pressure generally generates heat doesnt it? Then theres other crazy elements that may be relevent for such an unusual, alien amount of pressur in such a small area.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:14 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:I assume having skin as hard as or harder than Diamond would have several other ramifications beyond just being hard, I wonder how something as durable as diamond would react to heat, same with pressure, such high pressure generally generates heat doesnt it? Then theres other crazy elements that may be relevent for such an unusual, alien amount of pressur in such a small area.


Well, no. Having skin as hard as diamond doesn't mean it will be able to withstand temperatures diamond can, &c. Besides, this is only with respect to indentation hardness. Diamond, while hard, is brittle. So sudden shock will cause it to break. Finding durability is more complex than I previously thought. No, I knew about heat, electricity, hardness, plasticity, elasticity, and all that stuff, but let's consider this. According to this site, bone is stronger than steel of comparable size and is four times as hard as concrete. But here's the important part:

"Still, whether or not bone actually withstands such loads depends heavily on how quickly force is delivered."

More important information.

"A quick, sharp blow that delivers some 3,300 newtons of force has a 25 percent chance of cracking an average person's rib, she said. It takes more force to fracture the femur, Bir noted — maybe some 4,000 newtons — since that long thighbone is meant to support the body.

"That doesn't means that below those values you won't have a fracture or above them you will," Bir said. The amount of damage a blow inflicts also varies due to factors such as the amount of muscle or fat covering a bone and the angle at which the blow lands, as well as the age and health of a person, which can affect bone strength. (Emphasis mine.)
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:07 pm

I see, doesn't higher pressure create heat then? Wouldnt a vast force/pressure slashing across Kains body like it did create some sort of heat from the friction?



Also your right it is extremely complicated, to add to Kains feat we know the elasticity of his skin was high because it does not warp or break, his under skin, fat and tissues as far as we know did not take damage either, Kain was pretty much unharmed by the blow.


Thing is were mostly using estimates on factpile, you cant actually "run" the experiment on Kain since hes not real. Hence why we can only do our best to find a typical strength, hardness, elasticity and what not for his skin, bones, fat ,muslce and most importantly combine them as its relevent for calculating whether an opponent can actually get through all that to hurt him, considering Raziels strike which is fairly powerful did nothing, not even a scratch, its fair to say this is going ot be nigh impossible by regular means.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Amm0vamp1r3 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:16 pm

Amazing how all of this turned into some big thing lol

So this is just for Kain right? Just asking because Im thinking of making a Nosgoth in general thread.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:10 pm

Aye this is just Kains thread, a seperate "general Nosgoth" one would be cool!
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Amm0vamp1r3 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:14 pm

Alright then, I think I'll do that tomorrow If I'm not too busy

I've been watching a lot of nosgoth gameplay
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:57 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:I see, doesn't higher pressure create heat then? Wouldnt a vast force/pressure slashing across Kains body like it did create some sort of heat from the friction?


No; pressure doesn't make anything hot by itself. It requires compressing gas adiabatically.

Question: If you accept feats that occur during game play, why not accept things like Kain being injured by knights?
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:00 pm

Because not everything in gameplay is a mechanic like health values and the like and Kain being injured in-game is immediatly canceled out by the cinematics and their facts. Also what feat did I bring up from gameplay specifically? Most feats I use for Kain at least are from cinematics.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Because not everything in gameplay is a mechanic like health values and the like and Kain being injured in-game is immediatly canceled out by the cinematics and their facts. Also what feat did I bring up from gameplay specifically? Most feats I use for Kain at least are from cinematics.


I talked about health values as an example in my thread, "That's a game mechanic." I don't want derail this thread, though. Maybe on the weekend I'll address things like this more. I'm busy on weekdays.

The feat I was referring to was what Raziel does to the cube.

Anyway, once again, I'm not going to derail this thread.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:55 pm

So, I've been thinking about Raziel thrusting his claws into cubes. He manages to thrust them into the cubes, which would suggest his claws must be incredibly hard. I've also been thinking about the intro to Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2. I think that's the one. So we know that Raziel claws at Kain and this and the feat would seem to suggest Kain's durability is pretty high. (It's not actually the pressure of diamond formation (10 GPa) or a carbon nanotube (100 GPa) as I thought. I should read more carefully next time.) Well, it turns out my focus isn't on that, but on something else in physics called impulse.

I've taken careful consideration to watch as Raziel leaps at Kain. Kain pulls back, kind of like a boxer would if a punch was thrown his way. This is pretty good in terms of impulse because impulse is average force multiplied by time, so less time results in less force and more time results in more force. Observing the video, Raziel hardly has any time when he swings at Kain. It's actually pretty quick, at least in the millisecond range. Now, I don't know the acceleration at which Raziel swings, but I'll give it a try. First, I'll need to know the mass. It looks like Raziel's claws are at least two fingers in diameter. The average mass of an adult male's hand is anywhere between 300 to 400 grams.

I'm not worried about the diameter, but it will be worth considering. Let's go with 300 grams for the mass of a hand. Since Raziel has three claws, I'll take a third of the mass, which gives us 99.99 grams. Next, I need to see the swing of the attack to find the average velocity. The lowest time I ended up with was 128 milliseconds. The distance between Raziel's claw and Kain's face as he leaps appears to be about 68.58 cm. (2 ft. 3 in.) Dividing the distance by time, we end up with an average velocity of 5.3578125 m/s.

By trying to find the acceleration, which is final velocity minus initial velocity over time, using the same time it took for Raziel to swing and taking the average velocity would give us an acceleration of 41.85791015625 m/s^2, but I cannot help but wonder if this is incorrect because I would expect a lower number. Consider an object traveling at the speed of sound and say it takes 3 seconds for it to gain this speed, we'd end up with 114 m/s^2. Since the acceleration for Raziel's swing seems incorrect, I will simply work with 5.3578125 m/s^2, though it should be lower.

Using Raziel's claws, since he could very well be using three of his claws, I may as well just say he's using 300 grams anyway. Using F = ma, Raziel's swing would produce 1.60734375 kg m/s, or newtons. This is clearly smaller than the newtons produced using Brinell's hardness test, so what's going on here? Well, I'm not trying to find out how many newtons or pascals Raziel's claws might be producing when he thrusts his claws into cubes. What I'm looking for is impulse. As I said before, impulse is average force multiplied by time. This would mean when Raziel swung at Kain in the SR2 intro, taking 1.60734375 N and multiplying it by 0.128 s, we'd end up with a total of 0.20574 N s.

I do expect a reply, since this clearly goes against the notion you hold to, Kitten Lord. However, this would not contradict the feat Raziel performs early on in Soul Reaver, nor would it contradict why Kain was hardly affected by said claws. Impulse is an important factor here. This short video can demonstrate it nicely.
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