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## Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

The tip of Raziel's claws
I'm just focusing on Raziel's claws. So, according to the LoK Wiki in the Kain article, "According to Cabuco, Elder Kain is about 6'8 feet tall. [101]" This is interesting and I thought maybe trying out what I did with Samus when I compared her to the spikes in the games. So if Kain is 6'8", then based on this image, we might say Raziel is 6'4". 6'4" is 193.04 cm. Let's take this image of Raziel and start the pixel process. (I'm pretty excited!) I started at the top of the head on the hair, but ended at the curve of his feet, since his feet aren't exactly flat on a surface.

Well, the pixels I ended up with is 10 times 10 times 7. Then there's an additional 20 pixels. That gives us 720 px. So 193.04 cm is 720 px. The widest part of his claws are 17 px. The tip is 1 px.

17 px. / 720 px. = 0.0236111111111111
193.04 cm. * 0.0236111111111111 = 4.557888888888886744 cm.

1 px. / 720 px. = 0.0013888888888889
193.04 cm. * 0.0013888888888889 = 0.268111111111113256 cm.

This isn't the exact assumption we've been working with, but it's somewhat close. I personally think this is pretty cool, since we can use Kain's height as a benchmark for future calculations.
Last edited by Mea quidem sententia on Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mea quidem sententia

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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

I'm going to try this again. Impulse is force times time (J = F dt). Momentum is p = mv. Force is dp/dt. So let me get this started. An adult male's hand is 300 to 400 g. So I'll use 300 g. for Raziel's hands. The time it took to swing was 128 milliseconds. Raziel's arm traveled 5.3578 m/s. Multiplying 0.300 kg by 5.3578 m/s is 1.60734 kg m/s (N s). While it took Raziel about 128 ms to swing at Kain, let's make the contact a quarter of that. The reason I'm doing this is because 128 ms was the duration of the swing, not the contact. So I'll use 32 ms. 1.60734 N s / 0.032 s = 50.2 N, which is approx. (0.01 to 0.02) times the force of a punch from a professional boxer, according to Wolfram | Alpha.

This isn't ideal to you, I know, but we shouldn't try to base all things around one notion. This happened with Pit from Kid Icarus. If Pit could defeat gods who were able to take the same force as a mountain, then Pit must be exerted an equal amount of force. Of course, this would be absurd, but it was a notion floating around. What? Samus is from a planet with 960 g? Why doesn't she bust through the door to save Adam, considering her strength is 85+ tons? Huh? ?ightmare's gravity is double that of 960 g, since Samus leaps half the distance? Only Goku or Superman have a chance.

My issue is with inflated numbers, not Kain or Raziel.
Mea quidem sententia

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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

You cannot fight inflated numbers with deflated ones though, because their just as ridiculous if not more so.

but we shouldn't try to base all things around one notion.

Indeed, we need to take the notion that is most consistent with the series, which is that Raziel is a superhuman, not lesser than a human, hence why your calculation is clearly falsified. Even 50 newtons although an improvement over the laughable 2 newtons before is about twice the force required to break an egg....that's like me trying to calculate the net force of an atomic explosion only to come to "60 newtons" due to some method of calculation and expecting people to believe its the case regardless of visual evidence.

A superhuman who outputs over a million newtons to strike a stone, who flips triple digit ton towers and what not is not going to be able to do all those things if he was merely capable of 50 newton strikes.

The heart of the issue though is, do you believe he hit the stone block with nay greater impulse than he did Kain? Because I certainly don't. Also your other examples, like Pit, Samus are not the same issue and I cannot argue for series I have not played but whos to say she cannot bust through a door to save Adam? Or whos to say the door (I have not seen the scene) was not just, super durable itself?

There is also the fact Kains durability is consistent as being high, he is struck by swords, and not any sword, the soul reaver without being destroyed before and that was when he was young. So why a far more powerful entity like Raziel would somehow strike him with such minor forces while angry and potentially out of control even when we know what his output from previous sources has to be explained.

As does the impulse on the block as well, since its essentially the same attack , I want you to explain where that extra 1 million+ extra newtons went?

Kitten Lord
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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

I'm not fighting inflated numbers with smaller numbers. I am comparing them to demonstrate the inconsistencies. I can calculate over and over again and end up with either the same or similar results. I will never achieve the newtons you obtained from using Brinell's hardness test. I'm not even sure if Brinell's hardness test should be used here, since that is used to find the hardness of an object.

If I went through the entire LoK series, I bet you that I will never come even close to the calculation from Brinell's hardness test. In the end, this would demonstrate that Raziel's main feat you're working with is an outlier. I do think you are working with this notion and trying to have any other durability feat work with it. It is the only feat you will ever bring up, or at least the first one before laying out the other feats.

So, let's take Raziel's words about being a vampire at one point in time. If vampires are vulnerable to piercing attacks, and if Kain is a vampire, then Kain is vulnerable to piercing attacks. All these are true, so the conclusion is also true, unless you disagree with one of the premises. And while you said Dumahs won't die unless permanently pierced, my issue was more with the fact that they're unharmed and that a spear can pierce them. If Brinell's test should be used, then Raziel should have no trouble piercing the skin of Dumahs with his own claws. Whether or not they die isn't my issue.

If Raziel knows Kain very well, then Raziel is illogical for trying to harm Kain, though knowing he would be unscathed. This demonstrates to me that if Raziel knew this, then he is unruly and has a poor trait that any fighter should not have. This would mean Raziel is easily overcome by his emotions and anyone who angers him can easily exploit this weakness and use it against him. So Raziel is either illogical, or he knows Kain would be injured, or he is easily overcome by his emotions.

As for your explosion example, if the correct equation was used, then all this would tell me is that either the enemies who died are vulnerable to 60 N, or the developers just wanted to make things look impressive. But I doubt any explosion would only be 60 N, as we can consider real-world examples, and I bet there aren't any explosions in fiction that would offer this number.

Sure, Raziel has superhuman strength, but we don't know how much of the obelisk he actually lifted, but I can say he didn't deadlift it like Link. And my examples with Pit and Samus are worth noting because all the characters in question involve strength and durability feats. Sure, maybe Samus could have destroyed the door, or maybe it was very durable, but the fact is no matter what obstacle is in the way, Samus never tossed it aside or busted it. So it is with Raziel, who has to use other means to defeat enemies and overcome obstacles. Or maybe Raziel is very forgetful of his abilities.
Mea quidem sententia

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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Mea quidem sententia wrote:I'm not fighting inflated numbers with smaller numbers. I am comparing them to demonstrate the inconsistencies.

Its not an inconsistency, your just trying to make it sound like one because you found a new calc. If Raziels force stopped purely at impulse speed he would not be able to break stone, and if it was as low as 50 newtons, he would barely be stronger than a human fighter, not a superhuman one.

this would demonstrate that Raziel's main feat you're working with is an outlier. I do think you are working with this notion and trying to have any other durability feat work with it. It is the only feat you will ever bring up, or at least the first one before laying out the other feats.

Because its the only feat for Kains durability in Soul reaver 2. His durability is not tested outside of that so you cannot claim its an outlier unless you found Elder Kain wounded by something weaker.

So, let's take Raziel's words about being a vampire at one point in time. If vampires are vulnerable to piercing attacks, and if Kain is a vampire, then Kain is vulnerable to piercing attacks. All these are true, so the conclusion is also true, unless you disagree with one of the premises. And while you said Dumahs won't die unless permanently pierced, my issue was more with the fact that they're unharmed and that a spear can pierce them. If Brinell's test should be used, then Raziel should have no trouble piercing the skin of Dumahs with his own claws. Whether or not they die isn't my issue.

Who said he has a problem with piercing their skin? He says their regeneration is high, also your making the assumption that Dumahim are not durable either. Its almost like your using the fact their regen is too fast for his power means hes weak, when they could be strong. Your mistake is your trying to disprove something already concrete like breaking stone which cant get any more straight forward with "supposition".

If Raziel knows Kain very well, then Raziel is illogical for trying to harm Kain, though knowing he would be unscathed. This demonstrates to me that if Raziel knew this, then he is unruly and has a poor trait that any fighter should not have.

First, theres no evidence to suggest Raziel has some in-depth knowledge on Kains anatomy, he is his creator and is far more ancient than he is.

This would mean Raziel is easily overcome by his emotions and anyone who angers him can easily exploit this weakness and use it against him. So Raziel is either illogical, or he knows Kain would be injured, or he is easily overcome by his emotions.

This is your opinion on his emotions, Kain took Raziel, who was a Sarafan priest who fought for the light, resurrected and at that point in Raziels mind damned him to becoming a vampire. He has a reason to be angry.

But I doubt any explosion would only be 60 N, as we can consider real-world examples, and I bet there aren't any explosions in fiction that would offer this number.

exactly, and we doubt your impulse numbers coming up with 2 newtons or 50 newtons for superhumans, because its impossible what with the other evidence. Just like how someone trying to calculate a nuclear bomb as 50 newtons would be impossible, its just common sense what with what we know already.

but the fact is no matter what obstacle is in the way, Samus never tossed it aside or busted it. So it is with Raziel, who has to use other means to defeat enemies and overcome obstacles. Or maybe Raziel is very forgetful of his abilities.

No she did not, and this is your problem. You assume its an inconsistency just because a character chooses to not use the "hammer" approach and just smash through everything. Thats not inconsistency unless you can prove the character "could not" have broken through a door, or an enemy. Raziel never has a problem piercing through something he should be able to pierce, unless you can find this you cannot disprove the calculations on the stone blocks.

Kitten Lord
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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Forgive me for posting in this manner, as I am again posting from a phone. It is an inconsistency. You call it a new calc. I call it a calc not considered. Impulse is important in physics. Now, I may not be calculating the strike correctly, as the motion at which one punches might rely on more than momentum. However, as I said before, I can take the entire LoK series and calc Raziel's abilities and never achieve the magnitude you're using. That makes it an outlier.

Now, the Dumahs (-im in Hebrew makes a word morphologically plural, so Dumahim and Dumahs are the same) can regenerate, yes, but they don't bleed as far as I'm aware like humans do, so even if they regenerate, we would expect blood. Raziel makes it quite clear that vampires are vulnerable to piercing, so again, that his claws fail to do what a spear can do is inconsistent. It doesn't matter if they can regen fast. If they're very durable, well, I guess spears are more effective than Raziel's claws, which allegedly deliver 1 mil+ pressure.

It also doesn't matter if Raziel doesn't understand Kain's anatomy, he sure knows that vampires are vulnerable to piercing attacks. So unless you disagree with the premises I offered, the conclusion is that Kain is vulnerable to piercing attacks, so Raziel's claws won't have any trouble. Unless you can prove that Raziel's claws work the same way on other things besides those blocks, it's an outlier, since that will stand out among the rest of the calculations. And I won't mind covering every calc for Raziel.

But a character who doesn't use his power to make sure he succeeds when there are obstacles or enemies in the way is not using common sense. Unless you'd also avoid using your own super strength to move obstacles out of your way, or super speed to get somewhere when you needed to. Really, I don't think I'm the only one who would hold back if I had abilities that could aid me at any time. Raziel sure uses his ability to go to the spectral realm when necessary and phase through bars when he's impeded.
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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

I forgot to add. I don't see how being an elder automatically means increased durability. Please form premises and then use those premises to form a conclusion.

Edit: So is an arm is 9 kg. from a human who is 78 kg., then doing the calculation gives me 1.56 kN, which is 0.3 to 0.8 times that of a professional boxe, which on the low end would deliver 1.988 kN. I took the 9 kg. and added 300 g. to it. I don't know if the 9 kg. was taking the hand into consideration, but whatever. The cut-scene would show that Kain is pushed back by it, but not injured. This is higher, which is good. If there is something else I need to put into the calculation like torque, the calc shold become higher. So Raziel would have deliver 237.4 pounds of force, and Kain shows no injuries.
Mea quidem sententia

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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Mea quidem sententia wrote: Impulse is important in physics. Now, I may not be calculating the strike correctly, as the motion at which one punches might rely on more than momentum.

Not only that, a fictional character may generate "more" energy, force etc than a physical, normal being like a human. Hence why, when discussing supernatural entities the result of the attack is important. For example based on impulse, Raziel cannot damage rock, when we know he can because we see him do it.

However, as I said before, I can take the entire LoK series and calc Raziel's abilities and never achieve the magnitude you're using. That ma
Mea quidem sententia wrote:I forgot to add. I don't see how being an elder automatically means increased durability. Please form premises and then use those premises to form a conclusion.
kes it an outlier.

This depends purely on what your calculating, like I said, I guarantee you, if you tried to go through the whole of LoK you would not find Raziel showing himself incapable of piercing an object that he should be able to do so against canonically. Something can only be an outlier if you prove its not the norm, and since out of all the evidence we have for Raziel there is nothing to contradict this norm for consistencies sake it stands. The entire game is full of Raziel moving some form of stone or another and the same method, animation etc is always used.

Now, the Dumahs (-im in Hebrew makes a word morphologically plural, so Dumahim and Dumahs are the same) can regenerate, yes, but they don't bleed as far as I'm aware like humans do, so even if they regenerate, we would expect blood. Raziel makes it quite clear that vampires are vulnerable to piercing, so again, that his claws fail to do what a spear can do is inconsistent. It doesn't matter if they can regen fast.

Again your not listening, Raziel has no problem with slashing his foes, no matter where or how he uses his claws hes piercing something. If you watched the vids in the thread people posted on regeneration you would know not only does he make them bleed but he wounds them. Ill post it here if you missed it;

Its not piercing they fear, infact physical wounds are "fleeting" hence why, if you watch the vid further up until about 12:21 you see them bleeding quite profusely.

This is one example why Raziel cant just claw his enemies to bits because their regen is too fast or are too durable, so he needs to get their souls out and eat them. However, even if you impale a vampire and remove the object that did so, it gets back up again. So Raz cannot just stab even basic vampires, let alone Kain.

If they're very durable, well, I guess spears are more effective than Raziel's claws,

First, a spear may well be sharper than raziels claws, as we have found out their not exactly as sharp as the sharpest blades. Even during medieval periods or feudal Japan swords of tiny surface area were made. So this is not impossible but I think your missing the point of the spear use, their used because Raziel can leave them in his foe, forcing the soul out so he can eat it. If you notice in the video, whenever he impales a victim, the spear imbeds in it, and the soul retreats the body but when bleeding or injured they do not.

It also doesn't matter if Raziel doesn't understand Kain's anatomy, he sure knows that vampires are vulnerable to piercing attacks. So unless you disagree with the premises I offered, the conclusion is that Kain is vulnerable to piercing attacks, so Raziel's claws won't have any trouble. Unless you can prove that Raziel's claws work the same way on other things besides those blocks, it's an outlier, since that will stand out among the rest of the calculations. And I won't mind covering every calc for Raziel.

Not piercing, impaling, and it says vampires only fear it. I am sure if he "could" impale Kain, he would have done wouldnt he...Kains just too durable for that to work. Your misunderstanding what Raziel says, he does not say that a piercing attack or impalement automatically ignores a vampires specific durability. This is clear when he cant even damage Dumah either. Also what do you mean his claws dont work on anyting other than blocks? your not making any sense here.

But a character who doesn't use his power to make sure he succeeds when there are obstacles or enemies in the way is not using common sense. Unless you'd also avoid using your own super strength to move obstacles out of your way, or super speed to get somewhere when you needed to. Really, I don't think I'm the only one who would hold back if I had abilities that could aid me at any time. Raziel sure uses his ability to go to the spectral realm when necessary and phase through bars when he's impeded.

He does succeed though....he does not "need" to go 100% on every foe in the game does he? no....and your assertions, claims and beliefs on what a character should or should not do does not hold weight. What are you refering to when you claim he needs to succeed because I dont recall him failing to use his claws power, infact he uses both his greater strength and the sharpness of his claws throughout the game.

For example those blocks, or something like them can be found throughout the whole world and are a requirementto be manipulated such to complete the game and progress. Had raziel not the strength or force to impale rock then he would not have succeeded.

I forgot to add. I don't see how being an elder automatically means increased durability. Please form premises and then use those premises to form a conclusion.

Him being an Elder is important for a number of things, first its his evolved form. Vampires, if you did not know in LoK evolve rapidly. So finding a lesser version of Kain in a previous game and saying he was weak to something could easily be put down as him being lesser, you can not argue that the Elder Kain in current form would be just as vulnerable to something he was hit by in a less evolved state. Theres also the fact that evolved elder Kain has the feats, like Raziel striking him to prove his durability.

Purely because its logical a more evolved being whos advanced beyond his previous self is more powerful anyway.

Mea quidem sententia wrote:Edit: So is an arm is 9 kg. from a human who is 78 kg., then doing the calculation gives me 1.56 kN, which is 0.3 to 0.8 times that of a professional boxe, which on the low end would deliver 1.988 kN. I took the 9 kg. and added 300 g. to it. I don't know if the 9 kg. was taking the hand into consideration, but whatever. The cut-scene would show that Kain is pushed back by it, but not injured. This is higher, which is good. If there is something else I need to put into the calculation like torque, the calc shold become higher. So Raziel would have deliver 237.4 pounds of force, and Kain shows no injuries.

Youve forgotten to explain how Raziel lost a million or so newtons of force between him striking Kain and him striking blocks again.

Kitten Lord
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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

It's difficult to reply with this phone, as it is not very cooperative. So I'll just post this last bit. It's an impasse.

I watched the video of Raziel hitting Kain again. I would say the contact is less than 32 ms, so say it was only 10 ms. That would be equal to 4,980 N, or 1,120 tons of force.

But I don't have a stopwatch. Yes, all that force you keep bringing is not there. This isn't getting anywhere. I tried. I'll need to cover more than SR2.
Mea quidem sententia

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### Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Mea quidem sententia wrote: Yes, all that force you keep bringing is not there. This isn't getting anywhere. I tried. I'll need to cover more than SR2.

Well this is the problem, it "has" to be there, because we proved it is there in previous calculations on a feat that happens hundreds of times in the game, hence consistency. Said feat is no faster, therefore no more greater in impulse than Raziels attack on Kain.

If supernatural characters had to rely purely on weight and speed to deliver their blows, fewer of them would be able to strike higher than a human being, which would contradict their actual feats and outcomes of their blows, hence why what Raziel can do to rock is relevent.

Now lets discuss something a little different, when Raziel strikes the rock, the pierces he is moving don't shatter it or fly through it, becoming projectiles. Suggesting he disintegrated or melted them with the impact, so instead of moving rock, how much force does it take to completly atomize it?

Also the more I look at some of the vids, and I have been watching a lot lately. The more i wonder if these blocks, in some cases are metal, due to the clanging sound he makes striking into them, and how their a very iron/grey colour in some cases. Some are obviously akin to sand or limestone, others look like iron to me. How much force I wonder would it take to do the same to a block of iron?

Kitten Lord
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