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Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

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Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:36 pm

Kain the Scion of Balance


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Kains Story
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The following is in chronological order as understood by the games, some of these may be years apart and due to time travel some of these were not percieved by the characters in chronological order, some events in previous games could only happen because of what happened in the future, however it is stated by developers that all of these events are in most cases merely illusions of free will. Those where the characters though their actions could control time. In the LoK timeline, according to the developers even events in past, or those that created events in the past from actions in the future would have happened in the timeline and have always happened, it is debatable whether Raziel or Kain had free will, some belive Kain does at the end of Defiance but neither have been truly able to escape their destinies, not even Raziel

Blood omen


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Spoiler
Walkthrough of the game; https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... FA22AE3379

Kain was a nobleman, from the city of Coorhagen. He grew up completely unaware of his greater destiny: that he had been selected from birth to become the Guardian of the Pillar of Balance.

In Blood Omen, Kain was thirty years old. For reasons unknown to him, he was assassinated by brigands outside a tavern in Ziegsturhl. Strangely he was saved from oblivion by Mortanius the Necromancer, and offered a chance for vengeance against the instigators of his murder. In the Underworld, bound to wooden posts and still impaled by his assassin's sword, Kain accepted. He didn't consider the cost or the Necromancer's motivations. "Nothing is free. Not even revenge..." He was resurrected as a vampire.

Kains resurrection

Kain quickly killed the brigands who had carried out the deed, then continued to the Pillars, hoping to find clues about the identity of their employer. There he encountered Ariel for the first time. She told him that there was "no cure for death, only release", and that he would only know peace after he had restored the Pillars of Nosgoth. Only then would his curse end. Kain heeded Ariel's guidance, and began his quest to kill all of the corrupted Guardians. Nupraptor the Mentalist was his first target.


Kain travelled north, passing through several townships.He reached Nupraptor's Retreat and beheaded the Mentalist. However, Kain soon realized his task was far from a simple one. A major obstacle existed in the form of Malek, the Guardian of the Pillar of Conflict. As the protector of the Circle, he was not about to let Kain assassinate them one by one. After a confrontation at Malek's Bastion, where Kain was forced to flee, Ariel suggested that the Oracle of Nosgoth might aid him.

Kain approached the Oracle, and questioned him about how to defeat Malek. The Oracle - none other than Moebius the Time Streamer - directed Kain towards the powerful and ancient vampire, Vorador. He also gave enigmatic pointers toward the kingdom of Willendorf. Kain was unaware that Moebius had an ulterior motive hidden in his helpful advice, and followed the Oracle's path. He met with Vorador.

The elder vampire warned Kain to stay out of human affairs, but offered his assistance if Kain ever needed him. Vorador had defeated Malek five centuries before, and keeping Vorador's signet ring, Kain was able to summon him when he faced Bane, DeJoule and Malek at Dark Eden. Malek was finally laid to rest there, and the other two Guardians fell to Kain's sword.

Kain visited Avernus Cathedral, and claimed the Soul Reaver sword as his own. He killed Azimuth, then continued to Willendorf. By hunting Elzevir and returning the soul of King Ottmar's daughter, Kain was able to rouse the army of Willendorf against the Legions of the Nemesis. However, Ottmar's army was defeated in the Battle of the Last Stand. After the king died, Kain escaped from the battlefield using a Time Streaming Device he had discovered opportunely, earlier in his travels. The device transported Kain fifty years into Nosgoth's past, a time when William the Just - the king who would become the Nemesis - was still a boy. Kain took it upon himself to fight and kill William for the greater good of Nosgoth, blissfully ignorant of the magnitude of his mistake.

Moebius had orchestrated Kain's trip through time in order to ignite a genocidal war against the vampires. William's loyal subjects, devastated at the loss of their beloved king, were willing to follow Moebius instead. They became his mercenary army, resolute to rid Nosgoth of the 'unholy scourge'. Kain returned to the present just in time to watch the public execution of the last vampire in Nosgoth, save himself - Vorador. Finally seeing how he had been manipulated, Kain battled Moebius into submission, and cleaved his head from his body.

Returning to the Pillars once more, Kain witnessed a conversation between Mortanius and Anarcrothe. Mortanius admitted his part in Kain's resurrection and assassination, but justified it as being for the good of Nosgoth; the Circle's corruption meant it had to be destroyed. Anarcrothe objected to the Necromancer's willingness to sacrifice all their lives. They fought, and as the Alchemist died, seven of the Circle were no more. Kain approached Mortanius, and was welcomed, although Mortanius warned that he was not the last surviving Guardian. There was still one more, whom Kain had not yet met.


Kain defeated Mortanius, and the Dark Entity that had possessed him emerged from his body. The Dark Entity taunted Kain for allowing himself to be used by others, and they battled. Kain emerged victorious, but he was left with a terrible dilemma. Suddenly the truth became clear to him, and Kain knew he was the last Guardian.

The fate of Nosgoth rested on Kain's decision. He could sacrifice himself to restore the Pillar of Balance, or he could plausibly take control of Nosgoth. He was now likely the most powerful creature in the land. Kain also was the last remaining vampire. Feeling no compassion for the humans that had hunted his kind to extinction, he chose to reject the idea of self-sacrifice. Roughly a millennium and a half later, Kain's empire stretched across Nosgoth.


Blood omen 2- around 200 years after Blood omen


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Spoiler
Kain sees this whole games events come into excistence in Soul reaver 2, to Kains mind of the Soul reaver period which is thousands of years in the future from Blood omen Kain has only the experiances of the original Blood omen game, but while trying to change his fate Kain saving Raziel from the reavers devouring in Soul reaver 2 Kain literally creates Blood omen 2's events, it is important to note Kain has experianced both, Blood omen 2 technically becomes memeories to the most current Kain but he does not forget/change what he did, knew or learnt in Blood omen 1


Blood Omen 2 followed Kain's initial attempts to conquer Nosgoth, many centuries before the events of Soul Reaver.

Some time after Kain refused to repair the Pillar of Balance, he set about amassing a vampire army to seize control of the land (at the best guess, it was about a century after Blood Omen). It seemed he had not yet discovered the means to raise vampires himself, so he relied on Vorador (who was inexplicably alive again in this era) to sire fledglings for his ranks. Over time, his army marched south from the Pillars, and took Freeport and Provance. Unfortunately Kain's success did not last.

Two hundred years after his refusal at the Pillars, Kain's army was defeated outside of Meridian. The reformed Sarafan Order, under the command of the Sarafan Lord, decimated Kain's forces with Glyph Magic. Kain himself was beaten in combat by the Sarafan Lord, and was widely believed to be dead. However, he survived - just barely - and was cared for by the vampires who would later form the Cabal.

Kains defeat by the sarafan lord/Hylden Lord

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8on6tcCQtA0&t=0m31s

Two centuries later (and still one hundred years before Raziel's vampiric rebirth), Kain awoke from his injury-induced slumber. He was in Meridian, and the vampire Umah was watching over him. She told him where he was, and what had become of the vampires under the Sarafan Lord's rule. Umah and the Cabal hoped to overthrow the Sarafan with Kain's help. Kain was eager to take his revenge on the Sarafan Lord, but he had lost most of his power and abilities during his brush with true death. His memory was fragmented, and the Sarafan Lord had the Soul Reaver.

Umah retrained Kain in the Slums, then he fought and killed Faustus in the Den. Eventually he met Vorador in Sanctuary. Kain loosely allied with the Cabal, accepting Vorador's guidance, but fully intending to follow his own agenda. Upon hearing Umah had been captured, he visited the Upper City to see the Bishop of Meridian, and killed Marcus while he was there. He then rescued Umah from the Sarafan Keep, showing uncharacteristic concern for her injuries.

Safely back in Sanctuary, Umah told Kain and Vorador about the Nexus Stone. She had seen it in the Industrial Quarter before her capture. Kain learned that the artefact could protect its wearer against the Soul Reaver. He went to the Industrial Quarter to steal it, but he had to get past Sebastian. Sebastian told Kain about the Device before he died, so Kain visited the Seer to find out more about it. She teleported him to the Device when the Sarafan Lord arrived unexpectedly, and set fire to her home.

Destroying the Device temporarily became Kain's priority. He met the Beast, and on its advice, Kain visited the Eternal Prison and drank the blood of the Builder. He also encountered Magnus, his former champion. Kain used the Builder's blood to poison the Mass: the living heart of the Device. As the Mass perished, the Beast was able to regain his natural form: that of the winged Ancient Vampire, Janos Audron. Kain and Janos spoke at length about the Hylden, the Sarafan Lord, and Kain's role in their return to Nosgoth. When Kain failed to sacrifice himself in Blood Omen, his decision had "caused a rift throughout the world, sufficient to breach through the dimensions." The Sarafan Lord, a Hylden, had been able to re-enter Nosgoth from the Demon Realm.

Janos and Kain returned to Sanctuary together, and a plan was formed to find and close the Hylden Gate. Against Kain's wishes, Umah accompanied him to the Wharves. Kain's doubts had merit. Umah stole the Nexus Stone from him. She believed that he would betray the vampires of the Cabal, and kill them to ensure his rule in Nosgoth would be unquestioned. Kain threatened her - clearly surprised and enraged by her actions - and she teleported away. When he caught up with her again she was badly wounded and close to death. His anger had abated, but he knew the bond of trust between them was irreparable. Ignoring her pleas for help, Kain killed her. As she died, he expressed some regret that this had happened, that she had forced him into it. In his words, she could have been his queen.

Kain continued to the Hylden City. He was joined by Janos and Vorador once he had destroyed the city's magical shield. Kain was arguing with Vorador about the circumstances of Umah's death when the Sarafan Lord appeared. The Lord injured Vorador, so Kain was forced to go to the Hylden Gate alone.


Kain fought with the Sarafan Lord above the Hylden Gate. Kain used the Nexus Stone to guard himself against the Soul Reaver, but he was faced with a stalemate. He needed to throw the stone into the Hylden Gate in order to destroy it. Kain chose to discard the stone's protection, ensuring that the Sarafan Lord would die, no matter who won their battle.

Eventually the Sarafan Lord dropped the Soul Reaver. Janos intervened, distracting the Lord long enough for Kain to pick it up. The Sarafan Lord threw Janos through the closing gate, then turned his attention back to Kain. The structure of walkways above the gate was nearing total collapse, but on what remained, Kain defeated the Sarafan Lord, and killed him with the Soul Reaver. As he left the destroyed Hylden Gate, he considered the future. He was now ready to establish his empire - the empire we saw in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver.


Soul Reaver- over 1000 years after the events of Blood omen 2

In Soul Reaver, Kain ruled a world dominated by vampires. He had raised six elite Sarafan warriors from their tomb to serve him, leaving their past forgotten. The human kingdoms were conquered, and these vampire lieutenants created many offspring. Their control of Nosgoth became all but complete as the Pillars continued to decay. The few rogue elements - humans trying to rid Nosgoth of 'the vampire scourge' and lesser vampires - were tolerated for amusement's sake, and to challenge the young.

As the Emperor/King of Nosgoth, Kain's throne was at the base of the eternally corrupted Pillar of Balance. His appearance had changed from his Blood Omen incarnation; centuries of vampiric evolution had transformed his body into a muscular 'higher form'. In his left ear, he wore Vorador's signet ring as an earring. He still bore the scar - misshappen and somewhat displaced by his altered physique - of the wound that ended his mortal life. Kain was "deified" (considered to be a god), and few in Nosgoth realized he had once been human.

Raziel being tossed into the lake of the dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N2L_zhvuls&t=0m22s

One day, Raziel - the first-born of Kain's lieutenants - arrived at the Pillars. He had grown wings, surpassing Kain's own evolution. Kain reacted badly, and ordered Raziel's execution, apparently because of jealousy. Raziel returned from the Abyss - as a soul-devouring wraith - wanting to destroy Kain for discarding him so lightly despite all his loyalty. They fought twice; the second time was at the Chronoplast. Kain led Raziel into Nosgoth's past.

Kain and Raziel in the Chronoplast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsZdCSjCzQ

Soul Reaver 2


In Soul Reaver 2, Raziel sought Kain with Moebius' guidance. He found Kain at the Pillars and saw the corruption of the Pillars happen while they were there. Kain explained that as Ariel died, he had been born, and thus being part of the Circle even at that early time, he was exposed to the madness of Nupraptor, her grieving lover. Raziel's anger towards Kain started to abate, as his own destiny and past were beginning to catch up with him.

During their encounters in different eras, Kain revealed more of his agenda. He wanted Raziel's assistance to reclaim the destiny he had been denied. In return, he would help Raziel achieve his true destiny. Kain was searching for a third option for the decision he was forced to make as the last tainted Guardian, one that could really restore Nosgoth. The choice he was given at the end of Blood Omen was rigged, and neither his self-sacrifice or survival would have solved anything properly. He had seen the future in Moebius' Chronoplast, and stumbled upon the possibility of finding the elusive third option. But it was a risky path to take. It would involve the manipulation of history, and Raziel was the crucial player. His 'execution' had been necessary.

Kain was able to persuade Raziel to spare his life when history dictated that he should have died. Then there was a second defiance of history that Kain believed would deliver Nosgoth's salvation.

Raziel was being drawn into the Reaver blade when Kain interfered, wrenching the sword from Raziel's body. This altered the course of history again, as he expected, but something had gone wrong. As new memories - reflecting the alteration - were created in Kain's mind alongside his old recollections, he knew that Janos Audron - recently murdered by the Sarafan - must remain dead. He also knew that his actions had ultimately aided the ancient race: the Hylden, the eternal adversaries of the vampires. The events of Blood Omen 2 - part of Nosgoth's new timeline - had taught Kain just how dangerous they were.

Defiance

Defiance returned to the story of the older Kain, and what happened following the events of Soul Reaver 2. Raziel faded into the Spectral Realm after he was almost devoured by the Reaver. Remaining in that era, five centuries before the events of Blood Omen, Kain kept the sword, and tried to find out where Raziel had gone. When he was unsuccessful, he returned to the Sarafan Stronghold to get answers from Moebius. He soon found the Time Streamer, but Moebius used his staff to incapacitate Kain. Mocking him, Moebius claimed that Kain's "messianic delusions" - his belief that he was the Scion of Balance mentioned in the Ancients' prophecies - had blinded him to "Raziel's true nature".

Moebius departed, insultingly leaving Kain armed with the Reaver, but unable to move until he was safely out of the way. Of course, Kain tracked him down again, and in the Stronghold's tower, he telekinetically wrenched the staff away from the Time Streamer before it could be used against him. He used his telekinesis to half-throttle Moebius, and managed to learn about a place west of the Pillars that would interest him. Moebius also said that Raziel was "contained", free-willed but certainly going to kill Kain, and far more dangerous than Kain realized. Kain visited the Pillars, and uncovered the Vampire Citadel that Moebius had spoken of. It was in a lake (likely the Lake of Tears), hidden by mist.

Arriving at the Citadel in Bat Form, Kain commented that Moebius had done him a service in telling him of the place's existence. It gave him the opportunity to learn more about his destiny as the Scion of Balance. Exploring the Citadel and Reaver forges, Kain discovered murals that depicted two champions: one resembling an Ancient Vampire, the other Hylden. One champion would inevitably fall. Another mural told the story of the human Guardians' revolt against the Ancient Vampires, led by Moebius and Mortanius, and in a sealed chamber at the heart of the Citadel, he found the Ancient Vampires' Oracle. This Oracle - in fact the Elder God - told Kain that Raziel was five hundred years ahead of Kain in time, and that he was trying to resurrect Janos Audron. Clearly Raziel had not heard (or otherwise not heeded) Kain's warning in Soul Reaver 2 that Janos must stay dead. The Oracle transported Kain to the era inhabited by Raziel - the Blood Omen era - with a warning that Raziel saw Kain as an enemy, even if Kain didn't consider Raziel to be his.

Kain turned up at Avernus Cathedral just as Raziel emerged from the Avernus Catacombs portal. Raziel had also learned about the Vampire and Hylden champions, and he had come to the conclusion that he was likely the Hylden one. He had recently devoured Turel's soul, and he appeared to be influenced in a limited way by the Hylden; they were fuelling his rage, so he would not listen to Kain's attempts to reason with him. Most importantly, however, Raziel had discovered that the Heart of Darkness, which he wanted so desperately to restore Janos, was inside Kain, and always had been. Mortanius had eventually realized his mistake in turning on the Ancient Vampires, and found out that the Pillars were holding something back that was far worse: the Hylden. In an act of atonement, he had used the Heart of Darkness to resurrect the nobleman Kain as a vampire, intending to create the champion foretold by the Ancients, destined to destroy the Hylden champion, and return the Pillars to Vampire rule. He believed Kain would restore Balance to Nosgoth.

Kain and Raziel fought. Initially, Kain had the upper hand and he battled Raziel into a semblance of submission. When Raziel asked, Kain admitted that he had no idea where the Heart of Darkness was; he'd never looked for it. Kain tried again to make Raziel listen to him, and understand that he had the free will to choose his own actions, while everyone else, including Kain, was "shackled" to the Wheel of Fate. Raziel was not swayed, and he attacked Kain, restarting their battle. This time Raziel was victorious, but as he tried to deliver a finishing blow, Kain caught his arm. Using Kain's body as a conduit, Raziel's soul started to be drawn into the physical Reaver which Kain was still holding. Flickering and fading, Raziel rallied, plunging his claws into Kain's chest. He ripped the Heart of Darkness out, then used telekinesis to throw Kain through a portal. It seemed that wherever Kain ended up, he was undoubtedly dead.

That assumption was proved false a bit later. Raziel resurrected Janos, forged the wraith-blade in the Spirit Forge, witnessed the fall of the Pillars, and fought with the Hylden Lord when he possessed Janos. The Hylden Lord triumphed over Raziel and destroyed his physical form, stranding him back in the Spectral Realm with the Elder God. While Raziel was detained, Kain awoke in the Demon Realm, the "shadowy realm" to which the Hylden had been banished, so long ago. His nature as the Scion of Balance somehow let him survive even without the Heart of Darkness. Kain battled several demons, and then exited the dimension with relative ease. He felt compelled to return to the Vampire Citadel immediately, so he did. Fans have speculated that this compulsion was due to Raziel's recent activation of the Spirit Forge, which summoned "the spirit of every Balance Guardian to itself".

Entering the Spirit Forge, Kain grinned when he saw that Moebius was already there at the bottom, talking to the (invisible) Elder God. Kain floated down behind him, and when Moebius mentioned his death, Kain surprised him, saying the Time Streamer was a "bit premature" in believing he was gone for good. Moebius' Staff no longer worked on Kain, now the Heart of Darkness had been removed. Kain impaled Moebius on the Reaver. He wasn't bothered when Moebius insisted that he served "One who has power over life and death" - the Elder God who had already restored him to life once (when the fledgling vampire Kain had beheaded him a short time before), and could do so again.

Moebius died, and as a spirit, he humbly started to ask the Elder God to resurrect him. He didn't get to finish his sentence, as Raziel, standing unnoticed behind Moebius, thrust the wraith-blade through him. Moebius finally saw the Elder God for what it was - as his sight was 'purified' by the Spirit-imbued wraith-blade - before Raziel consumed him. Faced with an eternity trapped in the Spectral Realm, and now aware that Kain was alive with an important destiny to fulfil, Raziel made the choice required to arm the Scion of Balance for "his true endeavor". Kain was examining Moebius' staff when Raziel re-entered the Material Realm using Moebius' corpse as a host. Kain reacted instinctively, running 'Moebius' through with the Reaver.


Raziel manifested fully, and a horrified Kain realized his mistake. However, Raziel would not allow him to draw the sword back. Laying his hand on Kain's chest, the wraith-blade dispersed into Kain, healing his physical wounds (including the scar he had had since his assassination in Blood Omen), but crucially purifying him of the spiritual corruption he had had since birth. Kain was now able to reclaim his destiny, as he wanted to in Soul Reaver 2. In his final moments before being absorbed into the Reaver, Raziel reaffirmed his loyalty to Kain with the words "I - am not your enemy - not your destroyer - I am, as before, your right hand. Your sword."

Raziel finds his destinty, Kain is purified and sees the Elder God


Kain was now able to see the Elder God. When the Elder threatened him and sent forth tentacles, Kain severed them with the Reaver - now the Soul Reaver. After a short fight, he teleported himself to the top of the Spirit Forge. The Elder angrily promised that one day Kain's "wretched, stagnant soul" would belong to it. Kain retorted that until that day, the Elder had "best burrow deep", then left.

Defiance ended with Kain gazing at the ruined Pillars from the Vampire Citadel, reflecting that "the strings of the puppets had become visible, and the hands of the prime mover exposed". He finally had hope for the future - that had been Raziel's last gift to him.



Weapons

Kain has a number of physical weapons that he uses in the games, but Kain is unlikely to use his basic and physical weapons, like axes and swords/maces because they have no special powers and he is not likely to use anthing other than the reaver itself which I will discuss in full. All incarnations of Kain have access to the reaver in some form

The Soul Reaver


"Time fades even legend, and the origin of the Soul Reaver has been lost long ago. But its purpose remains - to feed on the souls of any creature it strikes. Kindred, this blade and I." This being Kains quote on it in Blood omen, before he knew truly what the blade was.

There may be some confusion as to what each form of the Reaver really is so I will go through each one in the following;

The Blood reaver, as found by Raziel and used on his brothers in the past before they became vampires

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N2L_zhvuls&t=0m22s

The Blood reaver is the pure physical manifestation, as built by Vorador at the behest of the ancient vampires centuries before the events of Blood omen, possibly millenia. It was purely a blood devouring weapon back then and as shown above in the video, it can not only sustain the body and strength of the wielder but make them almost unkillable, giving Raziel who had no true regen factor an almost unbeatable one to the point where any wounds inflicted were "healed almost instantly", in Kains hands who already has the killer regen factor of a vampire would probably make him unkillable by any who cannot completly tear him apart. Its considered indestructable but as an actual feat it can be easily sliced through rock stone and all of Kains enemies with ease and has lasted thousands of years without time or age affecting its composite/metal. It can at least be assumed that it can take anything Kain can dish out with it, so factoring in Kains strength and the pressure he would use on the edge may give us a gauge on what the reaver can take. It has no other powers off the top of my head other than whats been mentioned, blood drinking, vitality/endurance enhance, healing factor and its own physical resistance.

Kain wields this weapon throughout Defiance until the end when he absorbs Raziel which turns it into;



Soul reaver


As will probably be obvious if you read the storyline pages above, and understand what the Soul reaver is (by name alone) it devours souls on strike as Kain states due to the fact Raziel as the soul reaver is imprisoned within, raziels hunger has not sated and he devours souls, just like Raziels spiritual wraith blade does in his soul reaver games. Note that the Soul reaver is everything above and more, when Kain empowers it with the emblems of balance, time, dimention, energy (lightning) and flame.

Emblems



Time

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8KHYFh2C6c&t=6m29s

The time emblem is the last and arguably the most powerful emblem piece Kain gains. It allows him to manipulate/control time which in-game allows Kain to either slow enemies he strikes to the point where he can strike them again with impunity OR he can release a large AoE time manipulation that slows down time all around him, slowing his enemies to a crawl. This will be a great ability to use in conjunction with his time related magic and in general, on enemies he cannot slow down by other means or enemies who are far faster than he is. The time slow lasts around 10 seconds or so.

Dimention

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1RMfS0xvk&t=3m14s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1RMfS0xvk&t=5m5s

The Dimention emblem is pretty powerful, its like a multi strike teleport when its power is activated that allows kain to do about as many as 6 teleports (seems based purely on how many enemies are in the area at once) in a second or so, striking them down with impunity. His teleports strike from all around his foes and its passive power is the ability to mirror the damage he does on all nearby enemies. This could be devastating against large groups, having the power of a Kain strike, soul devouring blow mirror to everyone around from multiple teleports, meaning multiple hits.

Flame

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The second emblem Kain gains amplifies the reaver with elemental fire, this emblem is unusual in that struck enemies take fire damage but if Kain releases the power of the emblem it creates conflict in enemies, basically nearby enemies go into a mad murderous rage and are made to see all their allies as enemies more so than Kain, if the enemies kill eachother to the last, the final man will attack Kain if nobody else is around. Could be an incredibly powerful ability in group matchups, e.g. where Kain is outnumbered, he can alter this balance with this and make his foes kill eachother. This emblem is one of the only emblems that seemed to alow power up Kain himself as well, it allowed him to create fire with his TK at long range, or set flammable objects ablaze. Kains soul reaver in soul reaver 1 seemed to be able to charge and fire a blast of energy that can destroy raziel in a single strike. This was a slowly charged move however and could have been Kain doing a lot of the magic and simply using the reaver to project it.

Balance

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iZYi8HH2G8&t=2m58s

This was the first Emblem Kain finds, the balance emblem can nullify magical barriers and fields on strike and emits an explosive blast of energy that launches enemies through the air and does heavy damage. Nothing specifically special about this power, breaking magic barriers and force fields may be useful I guess in some fights if their enemies use magic shields or barriers but other than that, the expelling explosion is hard to gauge. Perhaps we could assume its going to be at least as powerful as Kains regular attacks considering its a high power move and may allow him to kill multiple enemies, at the least it will knock light foes around and give Kain space if he needs it.

Lightning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPWyL-opeEU&t=2m25s

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The lightning emblem is a fairly straightforward affair, passively the emblem can periodically create bolts of lightning that chains between some enemies of some strikes, often at the end of a combo. Kain can again use its full power, like he can with all reavers and in this amplifiers case he creates a alarge AoE of lightning that hits all nearby enemies. Not necesserily the most powerful of abilities but lightning may have its uses in some fights if not to stun foes.



Summary

The Reaver at full power is an incredible weapon in both flexability and power, it devours souls and blood, makes you nigh invulnerable and can destroy magic barriers. Every strike brings with it a plethora of elemental powers and forces/concepts from dimentional, to temporal and can even turn groups against eachother if those powers are not enough. The reaver also when at full potential can strike the Elder God, who is a multidimentional entity which exists between, in and outside the physical and spiritual realms as well as throughout all times (more or less temporally omnipresent on Nosgoth) yet despite all this, Kain, unlike Raziel with the spiritual reaver and unlike entities within the physical realm (who cannot even see or sense him in any way) can slash him and cause great harm. Combined with Kains other abiliites and spells the Reavers flexability gives Kain a lot of options.

Wheel of fate and its relationship with the Soul reaver

Raziel devouring souls sends them straight to the wheel of fate, regardless of whether or not they can fight on the spectral plane or not or whether they are concious or immortal. As such, being inside the reaver, anyone impaled by the reaver, or struck a blow to have their soul devoured would not only have their soul torn from them but have it spun in the "wheel of fate" where by basically as the cycle of life, death and rebirth, that soul would cease to be relevent to who lost it, they would cease to exist and become recycled (for want of a better word) and become another living entity in the world. Hence, for every soul Kain may reave with his sword, hes not only getting rid of an immortal spiritual nuiseance who refuses to die of natural or regular means, Kain is also helping Nosgoths infant birth rates across the world :)


Physical Capability
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To begin, I will say this, Kains physical might in my opinion is not as powerful as his spells. Kain is not designed as a super strong character whos strength finishes his battles for him, when fighting he uses his sword, skill and spells and not brute force more often than not. The following estimations are based on logical deductions from the sources that follow, fictional universes do not generally give a text book on how their universes approach our real physical laws but most of the following sources give a fairly obvious general list of attributes based on what is shown and what we have seen from the game. I will show both Kains physical strength in the following sources;


Observe the following;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QMNFZGh3pA&t=2m41s

Raziel, Kains physical inferior by far fairly easily seems to lift up to above his shoulder, then push over a massive obelisk. Here are some calculations on the Obelisk;

Obelisk Calculations Granite

Spoiler
"Obelisks tip;
The square based pyramid tips height is equal to its lengths which are equal to Raziel's height.

V= 1/3 b2*h
V= 1/3 175^2*175
V= 1/3 30,625*175
V= 1/3 5,359,375

V= 1,786,458.33 cm3
Density = 2.6 g/cm3 [granite type density]

1,786,458.33*2.6 = 4,644,791.66 g = 5.12tons.

Obelisks frustum body;
The base of the obelisk is 2x Raziel's height at 350cm. The height is 4x the base for 1,400cm

Pyramidal frustum volume = ⅓h(a1+a2+(√a1*a2))
h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square.
= (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+√(350cm^2*175cm^2))
= 466.666*(122500+30625+√3751562500)
= 466.666*(122500+30625+61250)
= 466.666*214375
= 100,041,524cm3

100,041,524*2.6 = 260,107,962 g = 286.719949 tons

286.719949 ton body + 5.12 ton tip = 291.839949 tons.

But because a friend has another way of calcing it that had slightly higher results I'll use the middle ground of 300 tons. "


This shows a calculation on the obelisk, mathed as black granite based on what obelisks of said size are generally made from and what it looks like. What it is made from, either metal or black granite is arguable because many people who know the series and played the games, the two in my source and myself seem to think based on its colour and surroundings it may be made from iron, so I will provide an overall weight for each type to gauge Raziels strength from to get a fair estimation for both.

Based on the same calculations as above, a granite obelisk which is the lowest evaluation on Raziels strength is around 300 tons give or take. If this was iron with higher density, Raziels obelisk would give the following calculation;

Obelisk calculation iron

Spoiler
"Obelisks tip;
The square based pyramid tips height is equal to its lengths which are equal to Raziel's height.

V= 1/3 b2*h
V= 1/3 175^2*175
V= 1/3 30,625*175
V= 1/3 5,359,375

V= 1,786,458.33 cm3
Density = 7.874 g/cm3 [granite type density]

1,786,458.33*7.874 = 15.5057 tons

Obelisks frustum body;
The base of the obelisk is 2x Raziel's height at 350cm. The height is 4x the base for 1,400cm

Pyramidal frustum volume = ⅓h(a1+a2+(√a1*a2))
h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square.
= (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+√(350cm^2*175cm^2))
= 466.666*(122500+30625+√3751562500)
= 466.666*(122500+30625+61250)
= 466.666*214375
= 100,041,524cm3

100,041,524*7.874 = 868.32 tons

868.32 ton body +15.5057 ton tip = 883.8257 tons.
"


This is the iron calculation. A fair estimate on Raziels strength using both figures above may be to find a median, or middle ground, so this would equel 591.91285 tons, Raziels strength at a good estimate is close to 600 tons.

. As I said before, I am no mathematician so I use other math work based on opinions from the factpile forum, Jackn8r on factpile found the above resources and also used a frame by frame video capture software to find out how fast Raziel moves the obelisk from the ground to his upper chest/shoulders and using an estimation on Raziels height being 6ft, we found the following, the weight of the obelisk will be listed as the median calculated above although I will add both metal and granite calculations as well;

Median Raziel strength;

Raziel lifting speed:

Obelisk mass- 536974 kilograms

acceleration- meters/seconds squared. 1.524 m/s x 1.25 = 1.905


force= 536974 x 1.905 = 1022935.47 newtons



The following calculation is for the obelisk being black granite;

Obelisk mass- 272155 kilograms x 1.905 = 518455.275 newtons



This next calculation is on the obelisk being iron;

Obelisk mass- 801793 kilograms x 1.905 = 1527415.665 newtons


Another member of the site, Mea gave us another calcluation;

Spoiler
Mea quidem sententia wrote:While granite has a density of 2.6 g/cm^3, gabbro (black granite) has a density of 2.7 g/cm^3. I am assuming Raziel is 175 centimeters tall. I'll find the volume of the head of the obelisk.

V = a^2 h/3
= 175 cm^2 * 175 cm/3
= 1,786,458 cm^3

2.7 g/cm^3 * 1,786,458 cm^3
= 4,823,437 g (4.82 metric tons)

Now for the frustum. The height was at least 12 Raziel's tall, excluding the head of the obelisk. That already has been calculated and will be added after.

V = 1/3 π h (R^2 + r^2 + sqrt(R^2 r^2))
= 1/3 π * 2,100 cm. (350 cm^2 + 175 cm^2 + sqrt(350 cm^2 * 175 cm^2))
= 471,196,250 cm^3

2.7 g/cm^3 * 471,196,250 cm^3
= 1,272,229,875 g (1,272 metric tons)

1,272 mt + 4.82 mt = 1,277 mt


Why was I doing this? I don't know. I guess I just wanted to calculate this to make sure the numbers were reasonable.


Raziel moving blocks of brass;

Spoiler
Observe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmWuViquUWc&t=4m55s

I used this calculator;

http://www.calculatoredge.com/matweight ... l%20wt.htm

The blocks are a few feet or so taller than Raziel. Raz is about 6ft as an eastimate so I rounded off for ease at about 10 ft side length/width.

This means each block weighs around 280 tons. If it were solid. Moving four of them would mean he is shifting 1100 tons or thereabouts.

I then calculated the hexagons. Which would have a side wdith of around 3ft (their not quite half as long as the cubes sides) and length around 5ft tops.

This allowed me to cut out the hexagons, which each weigh around 11 tons.

The final number without rounding would give me around 1077 tons of weight which Raziel pulled around the room no harder than he does the stone blocks.
This adds up with the 1k ton Obelisk. Which he flips. He then goes on to “slap” each of those 269 or so ton blocks off so they are separate…
But that is not all ladies and gentlemen. If you watch at 5:05, he has to push 3 of them stacked at once…

http://www.easycalculation.com/physics/ ... /force.php

So Raziels effortless slaps using this calcluator allows him to move a 807 ton stack. He slaps it 10 feet in about 800 milliseconds or less. So roughly 4 m/s
He applies’ 2928392 newtons, or 2.9 million with an effortless slap.



That is force I calculated in the lift. The other sources give me the obelisks weight. Now the more complicated part is below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsZdCSjCzQ



Throughout the video Kain can easily snatch an angry Raziel out of the air, tank his blows and toss him about like a rag doll and even fairly easily breaks Raziels hold.

At 1:33, Kain snatches Raziel out of the air, Kain does it so effortlessly with one arm and does not move as Raziel impacts, who concerning earlier would have huge strength in his small body. Raziel proceeds to struggle a little against Kains one arm, before Kain tosses him aside.

At 2:06 is the main showing of physical resistance, Kain can take Raziels Claws (small surface area in a tip of a claw) after Raziel enraged does a jump double slash at Kain who just barely moves and tanks the blows easily, he then counters Raziels hold by pulling his arm down and tking him across the room, again making it seem quite easily done and natural.

More food for thought concerning the above feat from Kain tanking raziels claws; The following calculation was not done by me and was formed off-site however due to the difficulty of the calculation some figures are questionable. However since many fictional feats take assumptions and cannot always be calculated without making assumptions I will still put it here for further reference. This is the feat in question;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8&t=1m42s Which is Raziels stated superhuman strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8&t=1m52s Which is the feat itself, Raziel inserts his claws up to the gloved area into solid stone (or metal)

Raziels claws; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTndZKKmiI&t=5m30s

As can be seen, their significantly larger than a mans hands, depending on angle each claw looks as if the human hand could quite easily fit mass per mass within. Previously both Mea, Aeflinn and other posters both on Factpile and on other sites made posts on the calculation using different scales for the strength of the cube and I have documented them further down on this first page of this thread. However, newer calculations done mostly by Mea quidem sententia from factpile after some discussion and notes from myself which are potentially more accurate;


More calculations on the same subject;

Raziel's claw area and resulting force required to indent iron

The following math is based on this image and was Pixel scaled in photoshop. Raziels claws are essentially a cylinder followed by a cone so;

Spoiler
743 pixels- 6ft 4

26 pixels (cone length) - 2.6874831763122478 inches

9 pixels (cone radius) - 0.93028263795 inches

32 Pixels (Cylinder length)- 3.307671601615074 inches

6 (cylinder radius) - 0.62019230150471077944237151482197 inches


Area of cyclinder minus faces= 14.062371783960083479134959883467

Area of cone minus face= 0.281184706994875139649492634101

Raziel finger area; 14.343556490954958618784452517568 sqare inches


43.030669472864875856353357552704 square inches is the area for 3 fingers in the iron, brass, granite etc

Multiplied by 490 (hardness of iron), means Raziel requires 13.6 MN (Mega-newtons) of force.


The following are calcs on pressure;

New pressure calculation using more up to date numbers;

Spoiler
Kitten Lord;

This is an advanced calculation from Physics forum to find force required to break into a material, in this case brass;

F = (200 x pi x 136.74^2)/0.204 = 57 mega-newtons

The calculation to find pressure is;

Force (57589174 N) divided by surface area squared (0.0000001 meters squared) gives me Kains pressure resistance as 575.89 Terapascals, just over the pressure inside an Ivy-Mike nuclear detonation.



Above did my own calculation based from that force, considering Raziel has sharp claws, small surface area would increase pressure. To explain the force was taken from Meas previous calculation and the surface area of Raziels claw tip was estimated at 1mm squared, due to being easy to calculate and it being reasonable.


This would make Kain nigh invulnerable to forces below this and what's more make attacking him without a sharp weapon of some kind inadvisable. For example I wanted to find Kains resistance using the above figuires but in the area of a punch, an estimate of the surface area of a fists striking face was put at around 6 inches squared with 7.6 square inches for Meas own fist, the calculation done by Mea can be shown below.

Spoiler
Mea on the Surface area of a punch;

If the surface can be found by comparing it to a rectangle, and if I say the height is 2 in. and the length is 3 in., then I'd end up with 6 in^2. Of course, let me try measuring my fist again, since the other was a rough estimate. As far as length goes, 3 in. Height was only 2.5625 in. Multiply the two and you get 7.6875 in^2. That's my fist, of course.


The following is the math based on Kains resistance in the area of a punch.

Spoiler
Kitten Lord;

Using Meas fist as the example of the area, and the above figuires on Kains pressure resistance, then we can find force required to equal the damage Raziel did to Kain, only with a punch. Kains pressure resistance based on above numbers is 11.6 Terapascals so to find force, we multiply pressure with area; 11.6 TP x 0.0049596675 (meas fist) which gives us 49.596675 giganewtons of force required.

To add to this, using this calculator, http://easycalculation.com/physics/clas ... /force.php I wanted to find out how fast a man would have to go to do the same damage to Kain as Raziel with a punch. Using 80kg as a mans weight (fairly large man, hell a lot of fantasy characters are) I found that the force required to create equal pressures to Raziels claw strikes with a punch would need speeds up to twice the speed of light.


So in summary, if you need to punch Kain, give Superman a call :D

Further considerations

As shown in this clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8&t=1m42s Elder God clearly points out that this is effortless for Raziel, which by definition tells us he was not exerting himself at all to perform these amazing feats. Its difficult to find a characters maximum strength from this but an estimate can be made from the scaling of a human being, namely the boxer Georges St. Pierre (GSP for short) who has records in human striking force, from here we can estimate values for how hard Raziel is hitting Kain when actually throwing himself at his nemesis enraged which is a more honest reasoning of Kains durability than calculating Raziel not exerting himself at all.

GSP the boxer excerting his force; 2859 pounds of force

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAOLMPWftlU

Here is GSP training; notice he chooses what appear to be 20-30 pound weights which test him;

https://youtu.be/GDLQyM81eYw?t=161
https://youtu.be/3O2Ff-AEq4k

I will use this as our low ball on Raziel as opposed to something lighter but will consider lighter objects in the estimate later.

To the calculation, we want to find out how much force it takes for these weights to be lifted up using this calculator; http://www.endmemo.com/physics/weightforce.php

We can enter 10 kilograms (just over 20 pounds) and gravity which is 9.80665 to find that it takes an output from GSP equal to 100 Newtons of force to lift those weights. Looking back to Raziel, who effortlessly exerts 1164561 N and we can then start to try and scale Raziel to when he is trying. Comparing GSP's low effort at 100 N to his effort, which is 12717 N we know that in this example the difference is 127x more force behind a strike with effort. Now this is not entirely fair on Raziel due to the fact GSP can use his legs in the strike, but our best calculation for Raziels effortless force is him striking with just his hips/arms but its an estimate so here is an overview;

Spoiler
GSP's effortless action 100 N

GSP action with effort 12717 N (127x effortless)

Raziel effortless action 1164561 N

Raziel action with effort 147899247 N (127x effortless)


So calculating for pressure as we did above, Raziel has applied 147.8 Terapascals of pressure on Kain. Giving us a clearer idea of what Kains skin can take before taking any damage, requiring an excess in this to pierce.

But what of Kains strength?

A lot of this is Raziel, but as mentioned before Kain can hold Raziel helpless with one arm; https://youtu.be/dNsZdCSjCzQ?t=93

So lets just do the same as we did with Raziel above;

Spoiler
Raziel action with effort 147899247 N (127x effortless)

Kain effortless action 147899247 (Raziel could not even waver Kains hold with one arm)

Kain action with effort 18783204369 N (127x effortless)


So Kain can output at least millions of tons of force if he actually tried to injure someone. If he tried to gut you with his claw much like Raziel failed to do on Kain he would output 18.7 Petapascals of pressure. Course, Kain uses his Soul reaver sword in most situations, a sword has far smaller blade edge thickness than the head of a pin so to calculate his pressure from using the tip of the reaver as an estimate lets take 0.1 square mm, in which case his blade would apply nearly 200 petapascals.

Further observations that may be required would include how much extra force must Raziel exert when he uses his legs, as he throws his whole body by using his legs into kain when facing him and therefore how much more pressure is Kain actually under than we have already.
Last edited by Kitten Lord on Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:09 am, edited 43 times in total.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Magic
--------------------------------------------------------

Kain has a large list of magical spells and abilities that he has acquired across all his incarnations and is a potent sorceror in his own right. Below are some of Kains magical powers. The only Kain who does not have these powers is Blood omen 2 Kain because speculation suggests he forgets about some of his magical powers when in a comer/defeated by the Sarafan Lord, all we know for sure is he is weakened after the battle and you have to gain new abilities within the game yet Kain seems to have some of them, like mist form meaning that he did not lose all. In legacy of Kain Soul reaver 2, Kain as an Elder vampire experiances both timelines seperatly, including the one where he never fought the sarafan lord, so he has memories of both. It is also speculated Kain gained any powers he may have lost and gained more during his thousands of years of evolution post Blood omen 2, as Defiance shows powers such as bat form and incredibly developed telekinesis to name a few that were lost to Blood omen 2 Kain.

Concerning some of the spells below, they come from an old side scrolling action hack and slash game and therefore all projectiles in such an old game are very slow, or the graphics are hard to discern. I will try and find some videos of Kain using some of these powers but I have found personally that getting hold of some old videos with such specifics such as spell representations can be tough but i will endeavor to find the more important ones. Also most of these are, being in an old game purely within the gameplay and some mechanics are represented that may not be realistic of their nature, spells like energy bolt, spirit death etc based on what the characters say in-game may not be a launched projectile for example spirit death in question looks a lot like the spell mortanius does to Malic with a gesture.

---

The spells;

Energy Bolt

"The energy bolt employs magical force in its rawest form. A messy spell, but a potent one nonetheless."

This is a pretty basic spell, just a bolt of pure energy. Kain can kill enemies with it and even knock out switches from range, probably little to useless unless the energy bolts can be gauged as powerful.

Repel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ZOZsw1OeY

"Invoking this spell cloaks me under a protective aegis. Whatever spell is cast at me will be reflected back at the caster, leaving me unharmed. It will only last for a short time, however, before leaving me vulnerable once more."

Repel is one of the most powerful spells in the game of Blood omen purely because while up it made Kain indestructable and spells would be reflected back. This is one of those spells as I mentioned earlier that has a different effect in the lore, Kain as my quote mentions above only says it reflects spells back at casters, nothing about physical wounds which in the gameplay are also negated. This spell was quite overpowered later on, because using single use items and power ups you could be indestructable for extended duration, obvioulsy these are gameplay mechanics. A single use of the shield spell lasts about 30 seconds but can be recast. The repel shield has only gameplay to gauge how strong it really is, indestructable is a no limit fallacy but spells are reflected not absorbed so this power may be useful against sorcerors and whats more, assuming the phyiscal protection is considered true as in the gameplay we could assume the shield is at least as strong as kains strongest foes within said game. Also some old Blood omen spells mention kain being harmed by tainted blood and one mentions sunlight as a weakness, all Nosgoth Vampires by the Soul reaver period other than the fledlings (young) had evolved beyond the weakness to sunlight, Kain as shown is just as powerful in defiance fighting in broad daylight as he is otherwise while in Blood Omen Kain was a little weaker if I recall, being so young and newly formed a vampire. Same with tainted blood, in later games Kain seems to be able to drink every type of blood, including Hyldren (semi-demon arch enemies of vampires) and demons without any harm.

Inspire Hate

"This spell allows me to exploit the petty prejudices of man. Minor grievance would escalate to murderous rage and oh, the sweet terror when the spell wore off and they saw their hands covered with their neighbour's blood."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIHosRpwHEY

This spell is pretty powerful, its not even a direct mind attack but more an influence on someones emotions, unless a character has strong mental control to the point where their emotions are non excistent or under wraps Kain could have whole armies tearing eachother to piecies with this spell. in-game it was another one of those incredibly strong abilities that allowed Kain, like Repel to destroy many enemies with impunity (or let them kill eachother).

Stun

"The human mind is a fragile thing. One minor shock, properly timed, can render them catatonic and ripe for feeding."

This one is spelf explanatory and Kain pretty much outlines its uses, anyone whos brain/mind is not more resistant than a humans to being stun could be made vulnerable.

Incapacitate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ho27eSOOc

""Through this magic, I can stop my enemies in their tracks. Frozen in time, they can do nothing to hinder their own doom. Sometimes, I draw out their fate, for the added fear sweetens their blood.""

Another evil spell, a time freeze on a single target. The only weakness being he can only hit one enemy, afterwards? Again unless they are resistant to time powers, no matter how fast a character may be, this turns them completly static. The spell being fairly quick even for an old action side scroller and homing makes it more threatening, combined with TK, Kains time reaver or other stun powers (or simply surprise) and Kain basically wins a fight with a normally equel opponent.

Blood Gout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlmvTOOuL00

""This spell allows me to use blood from my own body as a weapon. When struck, my enemies' blood would flow from their bodies to fill me with life. 'Tis a risk, yet the rewards are a temptation.""

Another self explanatory ability, he sprays/fires his own blood at an enemy and their blood pours back to him. Combined with Kains power devouring ability Kain could not only heal himself and weaken his enemy (may kill them if they cannot take a lot of blood loss or heal the wound) but also give Kain their powers in return. More useful than it sounds imho.

Control mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5cDzxS6I7Q

"This spell allows me to enslave my enemies, giving me control of their bodies. When I release my grip, their bodies will shrivel and die, as I displace their souls, and replace them with my own."

Mind control of a magical kind, Kain later on as I will point out has both this magical and another fully mental mind rape. As can be seen, Kain is protected inside a repel shield while he controls the mind of another.

Blood shower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97o5Rqt1w10

"Oh, to bathe in the blood of others! This spell is especially useful in the face of multiple combatants. Beware those with tainted blood."

An incredibly messy and nasty spell, basically an instant kill to anyone within about 10 meters+ who cannot survive all their blood pouring forth from their bodies, squeezed dry like raisins :D


Spirit death

"'Tis a spell worthy of the Necromancer himself. This allows me to dissect a creature's soul from its vessel of flesh. For these poor wretches, only oblivion awaits."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9nEQ9yeeOQ

Kains long range magical soul destroyer/devourer, again instant death unless you can survive your soul being ripped out or are strongly resistant to soul attacks.

Spirit Wrack

"With this spell I can tear a creature's soul from its body, leaving its vacant flesh mine to control!"

This is basically the same as mind control only it does not control your mind, it dominates your soul in a similiar fashion. Basically if Kain faces someone with an incredibly resistant mind, he can just pull this move on them to dominate their souls instead. Considering a lot of entities in fiction are more likely to have mind protection, mind powers being quite popular than protection for their spirit, this is a major boon to Kain.

lightning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuW3VgrRGE8

"With this spell I can call upon the heavens to tear my enemies apart with its explosive power. Oh, how their bodies will rupture as the scything energy rips through them!"

Arguably Kains most destructive spell on multiple targets, this spell could only be called outside but calls massive barrages of energy from the heavens to his enemies, the bolts are so powerful they blasted most foes to atoms in a single strike.


Slow time

"At times, my magic extends into very exotic disciplines such as the manipulation of time. I am able to slow time down, so I can move about quick as a wolf, while all others move as though they were mired in mud."

This spell or power deserves a bit of special mention. In the gameplay mechanics Kain has to pick up "slow time" tokens and then use it, however the lore from kains own words above suggests that the magic is not from an object but that its his own magic manipulating time. I imagine tokens were the best way of balancing this, not that repel and inspire hate mentioned above were especially balanced.


Summary

Those are the most obvious spells, but Kain within the games lore does some other interesting powers, like how he breathed his own soul into the dead remains of his enemies, creating a number of vampires who are powerful in their own right and between them, conquered humanity in their world, dirving them almost to extinction. He only did this for his 6 vampire sons, who could not take the corruption of Kains soul, so although they had a lot of power from him, they eventually devolved from the pure and elder race Kain represents into monsters, some fairly large. Kains ability to create other vampires this way, who can go on to become not only powerful,but can spread their vile minions/childdren across the world (within years of course) gives Kain the ability to create an army given time.


Powers and special abilities

Ok after the last part of this thread, this one should be easier and more clear cut to gauge based on things we can actually see in the games, hear the characters talk about etc, because when cutscenes in a video game and characters talk, you get a more detailed view of the world and a lore from a storyline perspective other than gameplay and mechanics for the sake of fun. Its a more dependable source so lets get started on Kains powers;

Telekinesis

TK or in laments terms moving objects at a distance with your mind physically, creating physical/kinetic influences/bonds at long range etc to manipualte objects without touching them is an ability Kain has and uses often. He does not have this power in BLood omen and gains only a weaker variant in blood omen 2 but in his Elder form from Soul reaver and beyond, he can do everything from fling people around, hold them in place, toss them off surfaces and impale them on objects. He can also telekinetically summon blood to him, outside of his magic powers and has been able to do so since the first blood omen games which is unique because some vampires actually have to bite their victims and drink, Kain does not and can do as much as burst an unharmed foes chest open and drink their blood from there, breaking the bone in the process. One can also imagine that even if a character is too durable for Kains TK to damage normally, e..g they have super dense skin said characters may die purely from the blood fighting to get out, e.g. bursting veins, damaging blood vessels because it cannot be assumed a character with skin of high damage (including Kain himself) has highly durable veins or on a smaller level, blood vessels and indeed durable organs that may fail due to blood going where its not supposed to be, or in the case of the heart...well you can imagine.


If you have been reading/revieing Kain from the top of the thread you would have probably seen a lot of powers by now concerning TK, some combat videos I have posted show Kain using it in the game. Heres some cutscenes of its use;

Moebius, item manipulation and disarm as well as body control and "TK" choke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_gSZlNqNQo

Soldiers launched from range, close range, into objects etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LTpwokoywE

An archer tossed onto a spike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7jvu-Q3LoQ&t=5m49s

Kain can also use telekinetic shackles;

"Reinforcing my brute telekinetic abilities with exact technique I am able to temporarily shackle my enemies in mid air with chains of force."

Which allows Kain to concentrate on battle and his spells if he does not want to worry about a foe or him striking back.

Kains TK strength can be speculated and argued but personally, someones TK strength is about equel to the maximum weight they can lift with it, which is Kains only real weakness. If he is faceing a very heavy opponent, someone very fast who can move too quickly (hypersonic+?) for him to even gesture in the vague area they could be he may not be able to use TK on said characters. Strength alone cannot necesserily counter TK (If your light and are being tossed around, being strong does not help you, if your in the air, you do not generally have an anchor for your strength either) , and in my opinion neither can other TK which is where we get to applications;

Apart from the blood control earlier which Kain could probably kill opponents he would not generally be able to beat (too strong or durable to face in close quarters, heavily magic/mind/soul resistant etc) Kain could hold enemies with impunity in the air, steal their equipment from them, knock an object thrown at him out of the air, ruin someones aim, toss them around to put them off and just plain mess with people that may rely on skill, balance etc to win. Speed can, if Kain can do this soon enough be nullified as well, if someone is too quick for Kain, a vague gesture in their general area and their feet may be off the ground, ruining their speed unless they can fly (even then, they would need ot be able to build momentum or have enough strength to break the TK to move quickly, they cant without being able to move).

Also, something else even LoK players may belive is that Kains TK strength is only equel to about a man in armours weight, this is not entirely true;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooUSd1yw-Rw&t=3m12s

Here Kain makes tons of rock, a whole thick clolmun/stalagtite/stalagmite tremble and easily smashes it with an effort of will into many chunks. So Kain has at least multiple tons, estimate of perhaps up to 10+ tons of force in his Tk, meaning he could theoretically crush someone into mulsh with his TK if they were not durable enough to resist such crushing pressure.

The following is a calculation done by Mea quidem sententia , a member of Factpile on the matter;

Spoiler
Concerning the coned stalagmite Kain destroys with his PK, it was measured to be 2.5 cm. tall, but only because I guessed where the measurement reached 2.2 cm. What I mean is that the rest of the stalagmite was higher than what the screen showed. Kain, who I guess is 7 ft. (2.13 m.), was measured to be 0.7 cm. In diameter, I measured 1.9 cm. I shall find the percent increase to find the length and width of the stalagmite.

1.9 cm. - 0.7 cm. = 1.2 cm.

1.2 cm. / 0.7 cm. = 1.71 or 171%

Taking Kain's height, the diameter would be 3.642 m. (11.95 ft.). For the height:

2.5 cm. - 0.7 cm. = 1.8 cm.

1.8 cm. / 0.7 cm. = 2.57 or 257%

Taking Kain's height means the stalagmite is 5.4741 m. (17.96 ft.). With these numbers, I can come up with an estimate using the volume for a cylinder.3.14 * 5.975^2 * 17.96 = 2,013 cubic feet. Stalagmites tend to be in caves made of limestone. In lb/ft^3, limestone is 163 lb. This gives us 328,170 lb., or 164 short tons.

Forgive any typos I made. I'm using a phone.



Passive immunity to mind powers

Here you can see that Kain, even in his relatively weak Blood omen era state effortlessly no sells without any apparent personal input Marcus, a Vampire who has the dark gift to dominate "all living things", more specifically humans;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4FsvDD5jM4&t=3m10s



Resistance to a lot of magical influences, unwanted transformation, reality warp etc

Dark Eden;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iuMPGfiYws

Kain has resistance to being transformed, having his body changed into something its not. Not many characters have this power ,but some in fiction that do can end a fight easily by turning an opponent into an animal, into a rock or mineral or w/e. Kain has entered a vast, country/region sized expanding dome of energy that had 3 major concepts of transmutation (states, nature and energy) working together to disrupt nature, physics, logic and to twist everything beneath it, including the weather, living and non living creatures etc. Normal humans would become demons or minotaurs, some entities were patchworks of animals that may have lived in the area (minotaurs and such) and it twisted the region below it into a hellish, fiery, lava strewn landscape.

Some info from the characters on Dark Eden;

From Mortanius;

"A triad congregates at the roof of the world, Kain; a plot to twist the land, to shape the world. North is where your vengeance lies. "

Kain observes the handywork of the warping field of Dark eden;

"Seeing a mutated human:

Kain VO
The poor wretch was warped beyond recognition. To think that it was once human.

Encountering Dark Eden’s strange creatures:

Such strange creatures that had been spawned by this dark magic; things half insect and half mammal - human torsos grafted onto abominations of the flesh. Sick as it was, I could not help but admire its creator’s ingenuity. "
From the Blood omen 1 script

And finally, Kains actualy feat itself;
"Kain VO
If it could be said that a land descended into madness, ‘twould be an accurate account of Dark Eden. A garden of horrors, seeded with sick perversion of nature’s design.
I knew that this Dark Eden I had trespassed upon would continue to grow, until all of Nosgoth was consumed.

Seeing the magic shell of Dark Eden:

Kain VO
Magic seethed and shifted. I watched the dome of energy as it expanded, absorbing and recreating, consuming life and leaving behind only a twisted parody.

Encountering precipitation that has been warped by Circle magic:

From the heavens, the tears of angels danced around me in a frenzy of fire.


Passing through the magic shell:

I passed through the wall unharmed. It seemed the magic only preyed on things that were alive and pure. Or, perhaps it simply decided that I was twisted enough. "


Despite the fact that the magic shell forced the rain/sky to rain fire, consumed, absorbed, transformed and recreated life as it expanded. Kain just walks through it, untouched completly and makes a joke on how he may have been twisted enough.

---

Resistance to soul attacks, some more magic resistance and physical resistance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMIHjCmFeNk&t=7m16s

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqKznN5525E&t=11m34s

-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqKznN5525E&t=14m14s

As shown above especially in BO1, even his weaknest (physically) incarnation can take strikes from a blade that blasts regular soldiers, armour or no into piecies, not sure how much force it takes to blow armoured soldiers into fragments but not only that the reaver as mentioned and defined above devours souls on strike and has done so throughout the series, Kain however just seems to get minor wounds, as he says he just needs to drink some blood to regain his strength. This proves, along with the other vid that Kain is immune to having his soul devoured but incredibly powerful magic/soul damaging weapons like the wraith blade for example and the soul reaver "can" wound him.

So Kain, even before he gains all the amps, and physical devolutions over the next thousands of years can take soul reaver strikes as a young vampire, proving Kain has not only soul resistance but also a lot of powerful magical and physical resistance. This sort of puts into perspective why Kain, later on in soul reaver 2 intro can easily tank Raziels claws without a scratch, his body is especially durable.

Heres a more vague implication concerning Kains souls resistance, even to non physical and more directly spiritual methods;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc_HM2vaTfU&t=4m7s

You see Moebius' staff disables vampires, in LoK a vampires physical body is just a medium to interact with the physical world as I may have mentioned above, their main conciousness and power comes from their souls which possess these bodies. The above video shows how Moebius' staff deactivates the wraith blade, a spiritual medium. This makes sense concerning how a staff can somehow magically disable vampires, by messing with how their body gains power/conciousness form the soul, it even cripples Kain as powerful as he is until;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnzHxaU9G4&t=2m28s

This proves that even though Kains soul cannot be devoured, since the end of Defiance and the loss of his heart, the more physical/mortal anchor for his soul, he seems to be able to animate himself and hold onto his soul even without it, superceding the only major Vampiric weakness in LoK concerning their spirits meaning his soul may not even be touchable at all by most methods, magical or physical soul attacking strikes.



Vampiric regeneration

---

WE have gone through Kains resistance to harm, but what does he do when he is wounded/damaged, well.. this is besides what has been said on the soul reaver his main form of survival if he comes across an opponent who can deal major damage to him. Vampirc regen is described as the following by Raziel;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpWP9e-iQj8

"physical wounds are fleeting, a vampires immortal flesh begins to close as soon as it is cleeved"

Take into account Raziels strength stated above in Kains "physical" part of this thread, even these baby vampires, mere fledlings can not only regen back from Raziels assaults but come back for more unless he deals permanent blows. Hence, if Kain is faceing someone who cannot keep up the damage or destroy by incineraton/atomziation Kains body parts, he may simply reform/repair in an instant.

Combine this with the ridiculous regen of the Reaver and Kains inability to be killed by normal means and you have a incredibly persistant problem if Kain wants you dead. If you can overpower his resitance and regeneration, drinking blood restores him (the reavers likely doing this for him as he fights) anyway and your going to need to keep up your assault because of the following;

Immortality, endurance, survival etc

What is a vampire in legacy of kain, lets review some things that are important. A vampire in LoK is immortal, and its soul is immortal, what this means is, even if it dies its spirit lives on in the spirit world and can, assuming its body is not completly destroyed come back from the dead, sometimes with even more power than before. Observe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcX2pfm0Tlo&t=7m35s

This is what the UK manuel and some in-game information had to say as well on the creatures;

"In Soul Reaver, the separation of a vampire's soul from its flesh was not enough to truly 'kill' it. As long as the soul existed, the body remained intact in the Material Realm. Removing the cause of fatality from the vampire's body (e.g. pulling out the weapon that impaled them) would allow the soul to return, and the corpse would reanimate.

If a Vampire Wraith was allowed to re-enter its body, it became a 'Revived Vampire' - as they are called in the Soul Reaver Game Manual (UK version) - retaining the power to drain Raziel's soul energy after a single hit."


Also note the more advanced vampires, like Dumah one of Kains sons had the following event;

"Dumah's soul still existed in the Spectral Realm, remaining in the throne room near his corpse. Raziel could speak with him there, and even try to fight him there, although his efforts would be in vain. Dumah's soul had the shape of his body (which had evolved in the centuries since Raziel's execution), and was fully conscious and self-aware"

So even if you defeated Kains physical body, you could face a vastly stronger Kain (if possible than he already is) coming back as a revived version if you do not destroy his body completly. Vampires could revive again even if you removed water from a source that killed them (running water like streams/rivers burns vampires like acid) centuries ago, they would be up, healed and fighting deadlier than ever before due to their souls development in the spectral realm. If you canont destroy Kains soul, at the very least to get a incapacitation wipe his body completly from excistence. However this is not so easy with Kain in particular, due to the following from the UK defiance manuel;

"Both Raziel and Kain are immortal, and cannot be killed by ordinary means but if they are wounded too grieviously they are forced to dematerialize. Kain bursts into oa swarm of bats, re-forming" page 22 UK game manuel.

Now in-game, this happens if Kain jumps into a water source and gets burned by accident or gets damaged too much, assuming an opponent actually got past all Kains previous defences, all he would have to do to save his body is dematerialize and re-from somewhere else, in this case mentioned in the form of swarming bats. Theoretically bursting into mist form may be a similiar dematerialise as well. Which leads onto mist form;

Mist form and intangability

Kain honestly does not have to be hit if he can avoid it, even if he can tank a blow or if he is being dealt physical harm and wants to regenerate in safety he can just burst instantly into a form of mist, in this form he cannot be hit by physical blows, possibly not even some magical because he is as ethereal as air at least if said magic needs to strike an actual target. In this form your faceing someone who can move incredibly fast, you see Kain himself is not necesserily a speedy character compared to some, but when he can burst into mist form, the mist travels pretty quickly. He does it in-combat all the time so if you want to see this form simply look at any of the defiance combat videos above. Point in fact, in this form he can move through barriers and objects he could not in physical form, he can go in and out of this form on a whim and whats more can hide within other mist to the point where if in a dark or misty environment can become as one with the shadows, being able to walk amongst people with impunity and attack with stealth as shown below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBbR1up9Fl8&t=3m58s

So a lot of useful uses here, defence, some speed, stealth, intangability etc, you can be strong enough to toss a mountain but if you cant even hit your foe then its all for nothing.

Phasing

Phasing is the term I coin for this following ability;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8on6tcCQtA0&t=2m26s

Kain clearly gets cleaved through the entire chest, it seems if Kain is hit by attacks or weapons that may cause damage to his body that he has not avoided with mist form or otherwise the attack "phases" through him. In this case, the Sarafan lords magic infused sword goes through him in less than a second but his body remains unharmed. This power is more likely to be effective against opponents he cannot generally react to or are significantly faster than him because he would generally turn into mist to avoid physical assault. This could be due to incredible regeneration, perhaps the sword is passing through Kain, and in the microseconds that it does his skin is already fully healed.

Temporal displacement

This power is a bit more complicated and is not directly described by the characters, but the premise is the following; Kain is not part of the regular time stream after Raziel takes his heart, its doubtful Kain is part of the regular flow of time at all and as such, will not likely be affected by time inlfuencing powers. observe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnzHxaU9G4&t=2m28s

Moebius is terrified and panicks, being the time streamer, the guardian of time in the Lok universe he has some form of omnitience, he knows major points in the time including when Kain kills him the first time, he had no idea about Kain being able to return later to kill him again. Moebius for people who have played the game orchestrates many events and manipulations using his time streaming/traveling devices and looking into the future yet his main goal, Kains death is a black spot on the time stream, basically he could not see Kain at all in this era/time and hes not the only one;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnzHxaU9G4&t=25m15s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnzHxaU9G4&t=28m50s

Raziel suggests that even the Elder God, an entity that is apart from time as well also had a black spot on his omnitiance, the Elder God did not know how much of a threat, or how powerful Kain would become later. He also could not see the futility to which his plan to kill Kain by manipulating Raziel would come to, yet he excists omnipresent throughout all the eras of Nosgoth;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0nn81_7Hgk&t=3m10s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0nn81_7Hgk&t=4m4s

Here the Elder God, thousands of years before he would first usher Raziel back from the dead as his "soul reaver" replies to raziels musings (so the EG may even see the thoughts of all, or at least Raziel/his minions) and knows who he is and speaks to him like he had only just done minutes ago, he also transports Kain through time, while acting as the oracle.

Yet despite all this nigh omnitiance/omnipresence through time and knowledge of events he could not see Kain in the time stream or Kains actions in the future, even though the EG itself is being assaulted there. This suggests Kain is beyond the normal flow of time and may make precog, farsight and time attacks useless against him. Of course time powers have not been directly used against him so beyond this logical deduction I cannot say for a fact Kain has a feat of being immune to a time freeze for example, but it seems likely yet it proves precog/farsight useless against him due to how neither moebius or the EG can see Kain in time and in the case of the EG, time itself is constant to its senses.

Float

This is a pretty basic ability but worth a mention, like most vampires kain can float in the air, almost glide when jumping from a height. This means trying to kill him by tossing off somewhere is useless and whats more, fighting enemies that can fly can be easier especially if combined with teleport. Combined with his combat style Kain can keep enemies in the air, with himself while he strikes them by floating for extended durations and floating nullifies the force of being thrown if you can control your movements mid-air to this degree.

Great leaps

Kain can make great leaps as shown below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REN8XzQ7a5k&t=6m25s

he increases his natural strength and striking force by leaping such distances at speed. Within seconds using this power Kain can travel tens of meters at a time within moments and strike at a distance most foes may not be able to react to or predict.

I found some math on the following site done by someone called Astner;

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/games/gabr ... ain-98944/

Spoiler
Examine the following screenshot.

Image


Since path is a parabola with the height approx. 1 m and the length approx. 30 m, we start of by splitting the main vector into two composant orthagonal to the map-line and then apply basic geometry.

Image

Image

Image


Or roughly 40% of the speed of sound in air at sea level with normal humidity.

Furthermore, keep in mind that the given instance is first level Jump, this ability is upgraded twice throughout the game.


This suggests Kain at his weakest in Blood omen 2 can reach nearly half the speed of sound.

Teleportation

--

You have seen possibly Kains strongest teleportation already if you read the "dimention embel" reaver section above in Kains weapons. This multi teleport is incredibly powerful and is perhaps Kains fastest/strongest one, but he has other teleports if for some reason the reaver is not at hand, or if he would prefer to use the reaver in other capabilities while still teleporting. See below;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnzHxaU9G4&t=35m54s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsZdCSjCzQ&t=2m52s

Is not as fast as others, but he seems to be able to do it with just his hands. "handy" ;), while not as fast, it only takes seconds and if not used for combat, Kain could use this move to cover large distances without taking an attackers stance, giving himself away with what weapons he may be trying to use.

--

Also;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn3lMHTml2k&t=5m34s

Kain does not need to move his hands, or make any gesture at all here. Handy if he is, for some reason being grappled, attacked or for some reason has no access to his sword or movements via some sort of stasis, magic or TK. He can escape very quickly indeed and materialise somewhere else as long as he has his thoughts (his soul basically). All in all, combining some of the topics discussed above, Kains not only incredibly hard to put down, but to hit at all, even if your fast or strong, no point if you cant hit your target. Restrain Kain with TK or magic? as long as his mind is active via his soul source he can just escape and be wherever he feels is far enough to avoid the same fate.

Power absorbtion through blood and other powers Kain gets from blood besides healing

Kain is a powerful vampire, few would doubt this. But I am sure theres lists and lists of characters who in some areas make Kain look paltry, but what if he drinks their blood? What if for some reason or other, he can make them bleed or they bleed themselves and he drinks it...then their powers are now his as well. Kain does this as a consistent ability through Blood omen 2, drinking blood gives Kain physical abilities in the form of strikes, as well as mental. He can also gain major information from an opponents thoughts and what they have seen by drinking blood so he may gain knowledge on how to kill them, their powers AND knowledge of who they have fought and what tactics they have used before to get an edge over an opponent or to equel himself against someone who is a lot more powerful than him (but not enough to destroy him instantly). I chose the video to show Kain getting a power from blood very carefully, because a lot of people seem to belive (people who know about Blood omen and have played it) mistakingly that Kain can only gain vampiric powers and dark gifts but this is untrue;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1AIitGoJBM&t=8m22s

Kain in this video shows drinking the power of a Hylden witch, not a vampire but in fact the opposite of one, the anti-vampire race. In this case, Kain can absorb her powers easily. he does this with vampires too, all of the ones who betrayed him.

Powers from Blood omen 2

I saved these powers until last, mainly because some can be discussed more in-depth on what they actually mean in the lore, rather than in gameplay. Because some powers do not actually give Kain in the gameplay mechanics to what they would give him inthe lore. Its almost like in-game due to design limits or some such some abilities cannot be displayed as a useable ability for the player when it is shown by the character Kain devoured the ability from.

To begin with, lets talk about the actual canon, the facts the lore on some of these powers, from the Blood omen 2 UK manuel;

"Dark Gifts

In addition to physical superiority, vampires also possess Dark Gifts. These are supernatural abilties with each Vampire having unique powers. At the beginning of the game, much of Kains former powers has been weakened during hibernation. Since only vampires possess Dark gifts, draining their life force allows Kain to absorb their Dark Gift. As he advances through the game, Kain will gain five more Dark gifts."

The lore does not say anything specific other than he actually gets THEIR gift, not something like it, or somewhat related. However, theres at least 2 abilities Kain gets, which are slightly different in-gameplay and I wonder if this is a gameplay mechanic/lack of development rather than a canon reason. As a LoK buff I would like to belive i have some perspective on this, and being pretty strong under the belief lore and story beats what is shown in gameplay itself (due to system, control, or graphic limitations) I will make some speculations on what some of the following powers Kain has can be if I disagree with how they are used in the mechanics of the gameplay. Obviously this is speculation, maybe i am wrong and the gameplay shows the powers exactly how they are supposed to be. I have mentioned telekinesis above, as well as Kains supernatural leaps so i wont mention them even though some part of them at least, if not all of them comes from Blood omen 2.

Kains dark gifts

Berserk

Gained from? Sebastian

Sebastian boss fight showing the dark gift as Sebastian displayed it in the lore;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6UBfiurkq0

His Dark gift allows him to run at fast speeds in straight lines like Hermes boots allowed Kratos in GoW, it allowed him great agility in some of his attacks, able to easily strike at multiple angles. More importantly as shown at 3:14 he can run so quickly he can move around a large circular room in seconds and run on verticle surfaces

What it does? Several swift 3 strike attacks, basically a 3 hit combo Kain could lorewise do without any ability, especially currently. What does it allow Sebastion to do? Far more, despite Kain gaining the dark gift itself not a 3 hit combo, the gameplay mechanics apprently belive Kain was not capable of this. My verdict would be that this was lazy, Kain needed a special ability but the control system they used in LoK would be not responsive or effective enough to give Kain super speed, even GoW 3 a modern game cannot make Kratos move omnidirectonally at any time he wants at the speed Hermes could but I digress, this was not anything like Sebastions Dark gift, its like Kain only learned a new combo. I have read old developer info that the team were going to make some sort of "bullet time" mode concerning Kain for this move but scrapped it possibly due to game release date coming up on them and that it may have been overpowered in the gameplay and made the game too easy.

my speculation - it seems especially at what stage Kain is at now in Defiance (thousands of years of evolution later) and even in Blood omen 2 itself ridiculous that Kain who has not only got the power ,but developed over thousands of years wouldnt be able to do at least as much without making up powers altogether as Sebastian could 2k+ years before.

Charm

Gained from? Marcus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqgj1Zhm6G8&t=3m54s

This power was not so bad, basically this ability allowed Marcus to not only read thoughts but completly dominate any mind not capable of mental resistance as shown in the video, Kain is mentally powerful anyway even to the point he can already without Marcus' gift/upgrade counter him but more importantly, what Marcus can also do is dominate the minds of all the soldiers, priests etc in meridian (the city they live in), at the end of the video you can see that even at long range without concentration Marcus can escape while controlling groups of warior priests to attack Kain. Further on in the game you see a lot of these, Marcus controls without effort a small army.

What can Kain do with this? Again this is not a useless power like Berserk basically is, its a good one but in the gameplay mechanics not as good as the weaker Marcus' power that Kain should have gotten, instead in-game Kain cannot mind control anyone holding a sword or weapon. Now obviously you may wonder, why would holding a weapon protect you from mental powers? exactly, it doesnt, not when marcus uses it either. This is clearly gameplay mechanics in action, in cutscenes and lore the Dark gift controls groups of soldiers effortlessly, theres no logical reason at all whatsoever why Kain cannot control a man just because hes wielding a weapon in his hands, its obvious that in BLood omen 2 combat style, when there are also less enemies to fact, being able to just control your foes that can kill you would be overpowered. It wa a bit lazy of the devs not to at least give a lore reason why these regular human soldiers, no different than the unarmed people Kain CAN control a reason for resistance. Its never explained why in the game.

My speculation - For the same reasons on berserk and what I stated just above, Kain should at the very least be able to do what Marcus can do. And at the very least, if not control armies with his mind or groups, at least control men regardless of what their carrinyg in their hands :roll:




immolate

Gained from; Magnus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCksnogiHao

This allows the Dark gift user, in the video Magnus before Kain takes his gift

This power is not so bad, better than the other two. Basically, Kain can pretty much do what the Dark gift on Magnus allows HIm to do. Except Kain cannot target stone and has yet to, making it difficult to directly say Kain can. I would say its logical, in-game and in-lore kain can do everything Magnus can do, and unlike the other two powers, the mechanics of the game do not actualy contradict me.

My speculation - Not much really, concerning this one Kain has never actually been able to target anything other than an opponent in-game so its not like Kain could not destroy stone or metal if he really wanted to with his mind. This one is, unlike the other two, moderatly logical and does not make silly and unlikely gameplay mechanic decisions on its use. Magnus is completly insane in the battle as well, and only realisies Kain used to be his friend and general after the fight.


Further speculation and points on the subject

Just a little addition, my reasons of the gameplay mechanics not showing what the lore and storyline claim in canon is also coupled with the fact ,as I pointed out above theres some things that do not even make sense at all (holding a sword gives your mind immunity to supernatural control) and on more than one occasion, some of these silly decision in the gameplay are directly counterd by the lorewise cutscenes of the games storyline. As an adition, the Hylden witch knew Kain would get her power, specifically the power he needed if he drank her blood. If she thought for any reason that Kain would get some weak combo ability instead or a power not a fraction as powerful as the one the user him/herself had while it was in their possession then she wouldnt have been so sure Kain would get the specific ability he needed to progress, which was the one he got from her and she even gave her blood for this to happen. As a side note, as I pointed out earlier, Kain learns from drinking blood, so its not like it can be argued Kain is not as experianced, because not only has he got their gift which develops naturally, not through knowledge alone but he also has their knowledge of it. Taking into account Kain has now evolved for thousands of years, taking the gameplay mechanics version over the lore would be terribly illogical imo. But thats just me, perhaps other LoK fans and buffs have other sources I have not read, or belive some of these mechanics are fine, do discuss :D





Feats



Combat


Kain is a master of weaponry in general but since he has used the reaver for at least a few thousand years, if not longer its safe to say he knows his weapon, how it works and has, due to being in at least 3 large battles, and fighting with said weapon through countless enemies of different types and powers he is heavily experianced. People can fight in only a few battles, in a single lifetime and be proficient with basic training with their weapon, but by comparison those veterans would be children to Kain, who has fought as the general or soldier in multiple wars and across timelines. He has a variety of powerful vampiric special moves with his sword that I will detail below, Kain will give the quotes for me himself;

Cadaverous Laceration

""Executing a quick flurry of sweeping strikes, I am easily able to overwhelm multiple lesser opponents as their blood sprays across the air.""

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLkx1lafdQ&t=3m26s

Here you can see the move, incredibly vast slashes, creating blurs of distortion. Maybe around 6/7 attacks in a second or less. (Also bonus, go a few seconds before in the video and theres some cool dimension reaver combat, the power reflecting the power of the reaver to nearby foes.

Sanguine Censure

"Once an opponent is flung helpless into the air I can follow suit catching them before they fall, carving their flesh and bone with a second assault."

Infernal sundering

"Upon slamming the serpantine blade of the Reaver into my adversary, the resulting force will blast their pathetic body into the very ground beneath."

Nightmares hammer

"While crossing swords mid-air, I am able to throw my quarry into the ground far below and then recall them within range of my continued assaults."


In summary; Kains massive experiance is backed by his supernatural powers, no Kain does not do incredibly complicated movements of skill the likes of which you may see in a chinese martial arts movie, but he has thousands of years of knowledge fighting with the same people on top of said sorts of people, his fighting style and actual experiance give him an edge against people who may have simply trained for a few years or performed fancy swordplay, at the end of the day Kain has more than enough powers he has mastered to use in conjunction with eachother across thousands of years to match pure skill or speed in "combat". Being able to juggle multiple enemies on ground and in mid-air (like Dante in DMC) proves he can hold his own.

Reaction times and speed

Kain has never necesserily fought anyone of major speed, most enemies are below supersonic however concerning reactions, Kain has fought Raziel who is deft, agile and with his own supernatural abilities can attack from angles and in ways the average opponent cannot, he has also fought Sebastian as stated above, who could literally run rings around Kain, but Kain was more intelligent and won, despite being in his weakest incarnation with the least powers. Kains best reaction feats are the following off the top of my head;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnnzHxaU9G4&t=27m19s

As Raziel in the body of Moebius stands, he barely utters a word before Kain within about a second or under slashes him, turns and does a glide dash pounding him straight into the rock. He travels a good few meters as well.

And, his best? well, this is going to take into account his best advantage and involves the dimentional reaver attack you can see earlier in the thread, you see Kains mind is so fast he can, even without being part of the world constantly form thought in fractions of seconds. Observe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf1RMfS0xvk&t=3m14s

He literally goes in and out of the phyiscal realm while teleporting, meaing each strike he does would have taken into account his senses having supernatural reaction time. For example, the average human can take as much as a second, perhaps under that conceiving and reacting to the world in a constant stream of information ,e.g. obviously humans unlike Kain in this ability do not exit the world, so your mind, eyes etc your senses are constantly streaming. The same may be true for other incredibly fast characters, even if they are faster at thinking than humans, their thoughts and feats rely on conceiving in a constant the world and reacting to what they see/sense. Kain does not have this here, his mind goes completly from reacting, to making the decision to attack and how at least 6 times while teleporting. Basically Kains mind is supernaturally reactive, so even if someone is faster than Kain, maybe even react to attacks faster generally, they may have similair thought speed to a human e.g. their brain reacts constantly to stimulai its cosntantly transfering while Kain cna go from zero stimulus to thought, action and attack in less than about 0.2 seconds I would say, perhaps less per teleport. That would mean his thoughts are significantly faster, as a human takes 0.2 milliseconds+ average just to process stimulai FOR an action and that calculation is based generally on things they are being asked to do in X amount of time, e.g. they know what their doing, its not reacting to the unknown.

I admit, Kain does not fight enemies that go hypersonic, and he does not have special feats that show him dodging lightspeed enemis and such, but on his level I cant imagine him having trouble with anyone hypersonic or under using teleports, mist etc to make sure their speed has to factor in "time" giving Kain himself plenty through keeping long distance through teleportation to let loose his stronger powers (or to use time abilities to freeze/slow them) .

Kains speed itself is basically teleportation, movement without actual movement, in the time it may take someone fast to cover X distance, Kain could be there instantly with a wave of his hand. On the down side, Kain may not be able to keep up in a sword fight or close combat if his opponent can physically fight with precision and skill consistently at hyper/super sonic+ He has more powers to cover distance without him having to move his legs than he does actual speed feats and he has more powers to domiante his opponents to the point where speed becomes irrelevent to make up for his lack of great speed. For example Kain is like a Chess master who has hundreds of moves he knows he can make to beat his opponent, who is a young man (lets say Dante from DMC who is fast) who knows hes good, but makes moves without necesserily thinking it through as much in the grand scheme.





Mental
--------------------------------------------------------

Kain has shown previously his mental powers are quite high, he is resistant directly to mind attacks. But concerning intelligence and cunning? Kain has aces up his sleeves there as well;


Intelligence

Kains intelligence is one of his greatest assets, if youve have read the story at the beginning of the thread, you would know Kain has fought against destinty and fate across multiple timelines, orchestrating many events against his foes across those timelines that eventually end with his victory. Kain in his Blood omen 1 and 2 forms are more headstrong, they are arrogent and they are more prudent to physical action before thinking things through, to the point of carelessness, e.g. Kain in Blood omen 2 wanted to attack the Sarafan/Hylden Lord outo f anger even though he had barely recovered from his last defeat and knew nothing about his opponent. Kain in Soul reaver, e.g. Elder and after is a master manipulator whos opponents that he eventually beats makes him even more impressive. Moebius the time-streamer can see most of time including most of Kains movements but even he is overcome by some of Kains actions, Kain uses Raziel in a way like a pawn on a chessboard (as moebius himself points out) and although he respects and is surprised later when Raziel accepts his desinty he still manipulates him to some degree. It may not be Kains actons entirely by the end of the game, but even the Elder God believes through his nigh omnicience that Kain will die, and the Elder God is proven wrong, just like moebius. The Elder God exists in all of time at once to the point where he speaks to Raziel centuries in the past/future even if Raziel never existed in the past/future and is just time traveling, the Elder God knows the future/past but for some reason, even his advantage is countered by some of Kains cunning. His mind brings to the table only what somenoe with thousands of years of experiance, conquests over multi-time and dimentional entities and oracles in long term plans and having masterful insight into countless possibilities into the future while choosing the ones that do not harm him or those he wants preserved.

Strategy in war, leadership and tactics in-combat


Kain went from being nothing but a angry noblemen turned young vampire trying to get revenge on his human murderors. He got manipulated on at least one occasion as well, however there is massive character growth across the series. Kain is headstrong to begin with but throughout Blood omen Kain proves that he does not just go for the throat as soon as possible, he uses resources appropriately, finds allies when he needs them that can specfically counter threats he may or may not surpass. Kain has been the general of many battles, only losing to the Sarafan Lord when in truth, not only was he the Hylden Lord and gave normal men Hyldren technology specialy designed to kill vampires but he himself wore the stone that made him immune to having his soul devoured by the soul reaver, protecting him from a lot of its power. Kain developed massively after Blood omen 2 however, he out of spite raised who were considered some of the purest members of the holy Sarafan warrior priest order as his sons, and with them and his ever building vampires literally succeeded almost wiping out humanity, only leaving scant settlements alive for food and the sport of fledling vampires (humanity had advanced if it means anything ,e.g. they used what appear to be guns and flamethrowers). He literally did what he set out to do 2000 years ago, conquered the world and made it his seat of power. Yet he wasnt done, not happy with his lot in life, he wanted to change his destinty because due to his choice as stated earlier in the storyline the world was falling into ruin. Thanks to the chronoplast chamber Kain could see his destinty or how he percieved it, hundreds of different ways of following the "fate" he thought he was predestined for and others to try and change his fate. Simply put, Kain is a master manipulator, planner over thousands of years and general in defeating basically the world/nosgoth of his enemies.

Personal combat

As shown in the scans below Kain determines his abilities based on the situation, Kain does not consistently stick to a prefered fighting style as he has no speciified training, as such he seems to use whatever he deems necessery for whats at hand. When fighting humans in the pre Defiance comic who he can kill easily he combines telekinesis, magic and swordplay wheras in the Soul reaver series, Kain consistently teleports both inside and out of combact and prefers the use of magic. Kain has no major battles in Defiance, he kills humans using his hands on several occasions, uses Tk when he needs to on Moebius and uses the soul reaver blade on the Elder God but all his fights are predominatly player controlled in this game. Its safe to say if Kain is being fought, watch out for Tk, magic, teleportation and his soul devouring blade and its magical emblems.


Social
--------------------------------------------------------


Persuation and intimidation

Kain is "deified" in soul reaver era, countless vampires worship him as a God and do not even question whether he was ever a man, and was a godlike vampire from the start of time. Basically he is so beyond his peers in this period that his pure charisma as the sire of basically his whole race puts him on another level. As someone who rules amongst thousands of vampires, many with super powers and abilities, they are so afraid of him they would not dare to fight him and respect at such a high level (he is kind of the sire oftheir whole race as said) they would not question him. However, as shown earlier, Kain also has intimidation when he strangles moebius for information, he dislikes/mistruts most humans, and hates others and will not hesitate to get information through force. Kain in previous incarnations, his younger Blood omen and BLood omen 2 forms are headstrong, will fight over revenge even in the face of possible destruction. Blood omen Kain in his first incarnation has yet to hate humans, infact he hates what he becomes and hopes to be able to revert back to human form but eventually he sees vampires as dark gods, hence why his Blood omen 2 Kain is like a blood thirsty, human dominating warlord, its their lives that shaped them however. Kains only seen murder and hate from most humans, either as vampire or human and in Bo 2, his perception of humans were blood thirsty vampire hunters who would hunt, under the Hylden lords new technology vampires into extinction given the chance. kain in his first two games can be a little cruel, even to the point where he will forsake allies to gain power to himself but he grows in wisdom vastly, and goes from seeing the small drawring board to the full grand scheme as Elder Kain. Elder Kain will more than likely influence, manipulate etc to get information and to get people to do what he requires, while before he would have killed anyone who got in his way.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby jackn8r » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:55 pm

This is very impressive!
DReager1 wrote:Okay I get the message. I won’t comment on the site anymore. It’s been fun. Good Bye Everyone

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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:46 pm

Developer Quotes;


Questions and answers;

With Amy Hennig;


http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Q ... ennig.html

with Jen, Richard, and Kyle

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Q ... _Kyle.html

The Defiance Team;

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37412


Daniel Cabuco

Q; Was Kain a good leader/tactician/strategist/emperor?

A; Damn Good! But he had an eternity to become even better and ascend to new heights.


Q; Was Kain weakened by sunlight.


A; Kain's skin hardened to protect him and keep him from weakening when expose to direct sunlight.

Q; How much of his former BO power does Kain possess?

A;I think you are referring to abilities? He's much more powerful than his BO version. He absorbed certain abilities to 'at will' levels of casting time, and discarded what he deemed unnecessary.

Q; When Kain is "killed" by Raziel, I have read that Amy Herring states that his essence as the "scion of balance" allows him to survive, do you know specifically what this means? Can Kain not be killed by any means I wonder?

A;Kain can suffer, be damaged, incapacitated, contained and forced to decompose to bats, but not killed

Q;Is the Soul reaver indestructible aside from the Paradox?

A;Yep. The only thing that can break a Reaver is another Reaver (Kain vs William, or Kain hitting Blue Raz)

Q; When the Soul reaver wielded by William hit Kain, Kain says he drank blood to regain the life the sword took from him or something to that effect, yet when regular people are hit with the soul reaver they exploded. Is there a special reason why Kain himself did not explode and only had lesser wounds?

A; It was only able to cut him and drain life energy from him through various nicks and scratches. Even these did massive damage to him. If the sword had driven through the Heart of Darkness, Kain would have died



Kains mind and processing infinity.

Image

This is separate to reaction speed as posted below, this is more advanced and is more high speed analysis. And by high speed, I mean infinity fast. Kain literally looks into the Chronoplast, an infinite timeline of possibilities and makes sense of it. He says as much in the SR 2 intro;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZMxCkBv_4&t=0m38s

“I did not fathom the true power of knowledge, to know the future Raziel, to see its paths and streams tracing out into the infinite, as a man, I could never have contained such forbidden truths “


So Kain confirms that he can actual process literally infinite information. The ifninite paths of time being the information hes faced with, and he actually says he contains/knows the future, truths from processing infinite information. This is further covered by the developer of the series Daniel Cabuco;

“Moebius sees the time stream the same way Kain does: through the Chronoplast. He’s the Guardian of the Time Pillar so his ability is separate from the Elder God’s.
Before you think,”Well that’s not such a great thing then. Not a reall ‘power’ per se.” Think about this: When he looks into the Chronoplast, he sees the various weavings of time, wrapping, unfolding and refolding, and is able to take it in without going mad. Only Kain, as an immortal vampire, had the time to sort out what he sees in the Chronoplast, ”


As you can see, Daniel expands on this, saying that you would literally go mad if you were not an immortal vampire or some such and confirms Kain sorts out this infinity that he sees, Daniel goes on to comment further;

“Remember Kain’s line “As a man, I could never contain such forbidden truths” at the end of SR1/intro to SR2. Infinite possibility makes your eyes go all cross eyed.”


So Kain does literally look into infinity, and somehow, manages to make sense of it but not only that, you have to look into the game itself and the events to find out how impressive this is. First, Kain gets through infinity in at most a century or two, he says as much when he talks to Raziel and tells him he found the chamber centuries ago. He also reads it correctly, because by the end of the game he succeeds in finding his destiny, despite being faced against someone like Moebius who can do the same as him, if not on a higher degree and the Elder God, who perceives time as a constant (he is eternal throughout time, tomorrow and yesterday are the same to him temporally speaking). Yet despite all this, he masters both of them with his machinations.

How would this benefit him in a fight?

Some of Kains powers, namely telekinesis, his mind powers, teleportation and his transformation into various forms such as mist form are "at will" abilities, he merely has to will it to happen. Consider the above, although infinity is not possible to plot mathematically the smallest unit of time is a Planck time unit, or rather the time it takes for light to cross one Planck length. This means that no matter how much information, no matter how many attacks or how fast his opponents think they are going, Kains mind can process at such a rate that as long as he is not faced with infinite data he will essentially percieve and process all of this before any of his opponents do anything.

It is a sort of advanced reaction capability, allowing Kain to process what he is seeing to a high degree before other actions. Due to his "at will" abilities being on a whim, he could effectively attack his opponents in this time frame, which to them would be like countless attacks, mental ones within the first Planck unit.


Blood omen 1 script


https://web.archive.org/web/20100611215 ... index.html
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:41 am

I thought this comic is pretty cool, Top Cow made this comic as a pre-release for Defiance and it shows a couple of Kain feats and abilities. Most are already listed and cited above from the games but a comic gives some nice illustrations. I will not post all the comic, some of it is not directly relevent to Kain that is not already mentioned in more detail above. The comics events are clearly superceded by the games actual canon but it gives you a general idea of what Kain can do.

--

Image




Image



Image

Image

Image

Image


The above show Kain easily ripping apart Sarafan soldiers using both claws, his sword and some TK and magic. I think the comic shows Kain being a bit more bloodthirsty than he was in the games but then again, he does have reason to hate the sarafan. The third and fourth scans showing Kains ease combining all his powers and assets, both physical or magical/supernatural while reaping his sword through soldiers like air. The fourth scan especially shows Kain smashing his hand/claw through bone, flesh and armour and taking the mans heart.

Image



Image

Kain just catches the guys sword and bisects him with his own.


Image

A soldier appears to try and jump slash Kain, Kain just slashes his sword into two piecies and tks him into the air before the mans feet (and even a piece of his sword) hit the ground.

Image


Kain then holds him in air with TK while also tking/drawring the mans blood to him, the force of the call smashes through his chest cavity to get to Kain, proving Kain can do multiple tk commands at once and blood is drawn to kain with some great force. So if Kains target's bone and flesh is not vastly stronger than a humans, Kain cna just draw blood from them, take their power and energy for himself or, assuming the blood cannot break a more durable foes body at all the bloods movement through veins/the heart would no doubt cause even more damage to organs. TK can probably win Kain many fights against generally more durable opponents unless they can resist the control of blood/survive it pouring the wrong way through their bodies.

Battle Artefacts

I missed out a few things, battle artefacts. These are special devices/equipment that are not standard to Kain (he has not used them since BO1) but may be included in his Blood omen 1 variant or others depending on further discussion, and depending on the thread/battle in question. Regardless, here are his battle artefacts, special devices that he can call upon for death and destruction in a pinch if he needs them;


Flay

Image

Kain on flay;
"These curious devices hurl bolts of whirling energy and eviscerate my human enemies by stripping ragged flesh from bloodstained bone."

Flay artefacts were projectiles that homed in on an enemy, then ripped the flesh from its bones. Vorador can be seen using something like this in the Blood omen intro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwS_GbMo99Y&t=0m50s



Implode

Image

Kain on implode;
"Of all the methods I employ, this is perhaps the cruellest, causing my victim's body to shrink on itself, crushing bones and rupturing organs 'til the pressure inside bursts the sac of fleshy skin, spraying its contents for all to see."

If these projectiles struck an enemy, their body rapidly compressed. The remains exploded when the internal pressure became too great to be contained.


Font of Putrescence

Image

Kain on Font of Putrescence;
"Should this object strike an enemy, rot and decay would instantly eat their flesh, and leave only a pool of blood and tissue. For a time after, the toxins are still active, and therefore lethal to the touch."

These artefacts were homing projectiles that caused enemies to decompose upon contact. The pool left by their dissolved bodies acted as a trap, promising the same fate to anyone that stood in it.

Pentaliche of Tarot

Image


Kain on Pentaliche of Tarot;
"A medley of death and evisceration. Let fate choose my enemy's demise."

The Tarot randomly picked how Kain's enemies would die. There were five different outcomes that could be dealt, and it killed all assailants who were in close proximity to Kain. From observation, it appeared that the five outcomes were as follows:
1.Flay
2.Dissolve (Font of Putrescence)
3.Implode
4.Explode into lots of tiny bits (like Flay, but with no skeleton left)
5.Exploding dismemberment (bigger bits left than 4, like when the Soul Reaver was used)

Basically most of the above plus more to everyone in the area. the most powerful battle artefact by far.

Slow time was not included here as I mentioend it in the first post, its not clear whether its actually an artefact or a spell that in the mechanics simply has a "point" system for acquiring it so it cannot be spammed. It sounds more like a spell canonically so its in that section above.

Destroying magical barriers/protection with the reaver

I touched on this on the first page under "balance emblem" for the reaver but I think it deserves a seperate mention since a lot of characters use forcefields or magical barriers to protect themselves. There are several blessed barriers in Moebius' stronghold that do not allow Kain access;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbdr2hy4PtY&t=6m45s

--

But after getting the balance emblem he can break them with a strike;

--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iZYi8HH2G8&t=3m59s

https://youtu.be/L62SDl2D8tY?t=991


Forms


Kain can transform into different creatures in Blood omen 1, some of these advantages may not prove so important now Kain is an Elder, he is likely stronger than he was when he was a werewolf, and through teleportation and such other methods can travel faster than as bats but theres bound to be other advantages for these forms since he still uses bat form in Defiance.

Werewolf form

Image

Kain on werewolf form;

"My lupine form enables me to move like lightning and leap over obstacles barring my path. But the guise of the wolf brings with it its own kind of hunger and rage."

In Blood omen the werewolf had certain advantages like being able to leap distances which Kain now already has as a vampire anyway although there may be a reason for Kain to become a wolf, to perhaps avoid vampirc weaknesses like water or such, he also gains a boost in a full moon to his stats.



Bat form

Image

Kain on bat form;
"In bat form, I can travel great distances with ease. From my vantage in the heavens, no region of Nosgoth is forbidden to me."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_eka-oNC2g&t=5m59s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ms6_geV1ck&t=3m15s

I guess in combat turning into dozens of bats may put off your opponent, especially if they cannot fly themselves. Its not clear what happens if you kill one of the bats since their not killable and have never been attacked in the games. I would speculate Kain may either only be harmed if you killed all the bats or maybe he would reform with missing digits or fingers if you killed a few, probably the latter. The bats are pretty fast though, faster than normal bats so to assume their normal would be false on my part. Teleportation is kains more common mode of movement when getting to places within visual range or places hes been to before.

Disguise/Beguile

Image

These two powers are interesting, perhaps in an in-character fight or scenario Kain could use this power to confuse or trick his opponents. I have listed them under the same name since although their two different spells, beguile is simply a more powerful version of disguise.

Kain on Diguise/Beguile

-Diguise

"There are benefits to travelling beneath a human guise. The threat to my person is lessened and much information can be gleaned. However, the illusion is flimsy, and any act of aggression on my part can break the spell."

-Beguile

"Unlike the Mask of Disguise, this spell actually allows me to cast away the guise of death for a time, allowing me to walk among the living undisturbed. The spell also provides a visage of nobility, for there are many who would easily divulge more to those of highborn blood."


Now concerning these abilities, Kain in a regular battle turning into a human wont fool his opponent into suddenly becoming passive, especially if their the only two people there. But in a scenario or storyline/non combat based matchup he may be able to use it in his advantage.

Mist form was detailed above on the second page already and has far more combat uses than most of these skills.


Kains Blood omen 1 Armor

During BO 1 Kain gained a lot of different piecies of armor, and wears a few different ones (in appearance, I dont recall them having special powers), each one Kain gives a quote on. I will give the quote on each piece of armor and equipment below by Kain, then give the in-game use following that.

Iron armor

"As it was born from hellfire, forged by the Necromancer's magic, my armor resists fire and provides me with strong defence."

This was Kain's original armour, and it used to be white. Presumably it had been the same type of armour as the Willendorf militia wore, as Kain had once been loyal to the Willendorf throne. He was wearing it when he was assassinated and, like him, it was changed by Mortanius' magic. He had the Iron Armor when he awoke in his mausoleum, and it provided him with reliable, all-round protection.

Bone Armor

"Lower forms of undead fall swiftly to deception. With the Bone Armor, they are not as eager to challenge me."

The Bone Armor could be found in the passages underneath the plague-ridden city of Coorhagen. If Kain wore this, weaker undead creatures - like Skeletons, Zombies, and Shadows - would ignore him entirely. This was useful for avoiding fights, and allowed Kain to move quickly and safely through their haunts.

Chaos Armor

"My enemies are quite vicious and the Chaos Armor extracts from them a heavy price for their bloodlust. The blows are meant for me, but it is their bodies that carry the wounds."

Kain found this armour in Vorador's Mansion. If an enemy attacked Kain while he was wearing it, they would suffer the same amount of injury as they inflicted on him. Enemies could send themselves into the waver state, without Kain having to lift a finger.

Flesh armor

"How convenient. This armor, wrought with the blood of noblemen, drains the blood from my enemies for me, leaving me to focus on the slaughter at hand."

The Flesh Armor drained the blood of Kain's enemies, so he didn't have to think about it. He could focus on killing. Kain had to be careful around enemies with poisonous green blood, or black blood, as the Flesh Armor would absorb that too. He found the armour at Dark Eden.



Wraith Armor

"This armor was spawned in the most impure of spirit forges, tempered from the seething agony of tortured souls. The metal exists only partially in the human realm, causing it to fade between tangible and ethereal states."

This armour divided any damage Kain received between his blood vial and magic meter. He found it in the hellish catacombs of Avernus Cathedral. It was near a chained skeleton (probably the mortal remains of Malek).



Post Blood omen 2, Kain does not seem to wear any kind of armor, probably because he no longer needs it and his apprent gain in size, muscle and other evolutionary features may make some of his previous armor piecies difficult to wear

A REALLY COOL ANIMATION!

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZDoArORAkw


This animation is a nice bit of fan work, by Eric Tan.


Common misconceptions

There are a number of misconceptions about Kain and the series in general but I will try and clear some of those up here;

Kain lost his Blood omen 1 spells and abilities

Spoiler
This is partly true and partly false.

The belief that he lost them is due to this event;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCDozzvS4a4

After being defeated by the Sarafan Lord in Blood omen 2, Kain is weakened, it does not directly state whether or not he had lost or forgotten those spells but his memory is poor hence why many interpret he may have forgotten many things including his magic. Regardless Kain does eventually regain his old strength but is unclear if supposing he did lose his knowledge on magic did did he regain it? I don't know, hence why often I would argue that Blood omen 2 Kain at least may not have access to those spells, but what about the main Elder Kain of the soul reaver era?

The misconception comes at the fact that Blood omen 2, at least to Elder Kain is created from his machinations at the end of Soul reaver 2;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTndZKKmiI

At 8:30

"behind Kains eyes new memories were blooming and dying"

Some people thought this meant Kain forget things but this is actually not the case;


http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37412

"11. Why after the change in the BO1 timeline does Kain remember his normal past, when in SR2 Raziel says that he can see new memories forming behind Kain's eyes and old ones dying?

When we say here that the old memories are dying it is not that they are being erased from Kain's memory but instead being shuffled aside by the newer memories that reflect the altered course of history. Therefore he is not forgetting them he instead is holding in his mind two sets of parallel histories, one which is 'dead' and the other which is new and altered. This happens in BO1 but it is not directly mentioned by Kain."



Kain is literally a composite canonically of his BO 2 and previous era selves, including the memories. So Kain in reality forgot nothing due to BO 2, only gained. Although its true Kain does not often use powers from the previous games, TK is one power he uses a lot of from BO 2 with a more advanced hand, same with bat form from Blood omen 1 and mist form from both games (his current mist form alike to the Blood omen 1 version), these suggest that not only does he not lose knowledge but what's more shows powers from the first and second games both. There is no evidence that the Elder Kain "cannot" cast those spell not to mention he is significantly wiser, more evolved and more powerful and intelligent in every way.



Fun math

What If Kain jumped with effort?

Spoiler
I thought it would be fun to do a calculation to find how the result of Kain putting effort into jumping off from the ground. Using the force in newtons from the "Kains strength" section on the first page (18.78 GN) I can find using this calculator that he would accelerate to nearly 70% of the speed of light (over 200k km/s) and as he takes his journey into space the force on the environment I found using this calculator whose result suggested Kain would create a crater with a diameter greater than 22 km, such as this one;

Image

This may be a lowball (on top of the original lowball for force of Kain) as the calculators seem to consider the object as travelling through the atmosphere with this force and I see nothing on impulse from the sudden force on the terrain of kains legs giving off. Other than that I wonder if Kain would reach any opponent he leaps at 70% of C before the over-pressure, flying landscape pieces and boulders obliterate them. Probably.


An investigation into Raziels force without effort

Spoiler
The following calculation is going to be an investigation into what "effortless" means for Raziel. The Elder God says Raziels physical prowess allows him to move "massive obstacles" effortlessly, the cut-scene the developers created specially to focus on this obstacle shows us what appears to be a large cube of stone. Now the following calculation is based on him indenting brass blocks that he comes across later in the game with his claws;

This is an advanced calculation from Physics forum to find force required to break into a material, in this case brass;

F = (200 x pi x 136.74^2)/0.204 = 57 mega-newtons


Again thanks to the professors and their peers on the Physics forum for calculating that.

Now we have the force Raziel uses to indent those blocks for moving. We also know he can, and often does move them in other ways so he is well aware it would be significantly easier for him to move it that way, unless..as the Elder God points out moving them requires no effort for him and both are effortless. But how much more force is required to indent brass rather than just moving the blocks? Well, I did this calculation using various calculators online to find the weight of the brass blocks in the game;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmWuViquUWc&t=4m55s

I used this calculator;

http://www.calculatoredge.com/matweight ... l%20wt.htm

The blocks are a few feet or so taller than Raziel. Raz is about 6ft as an eastimate so I rounded off for ease at about 10 ft side length/width.

This means each block weighs around 280 tons. If it were solid. Moving four of them would mean he is shifting 1100 tons or thereabouts.

I then calculated the hexagons. Which would have a side wdith of around 3ft (their not quite half as long as the cubes sides) and length around 5ft tops.

This allowed me to cut out the hexagons, which each weigh around 11 tons. Meaning each block is 269-270 tons.


Now, Raziel moves those blocks about 3 meters a second, I used this calculator to find out that a 269 ton block moving 3 meters in a second requires 732KN of force. This means that Raziel finds it just as easy to apply 78x as much force to indent the brass as he does just pushing it around. Despite it being 78x easier to do which is another order of magnitude he still just plants his hands in it which is astounding for Raziels strength.

Not bad for a guy just using hip movement and individual arms, to output over 57 MN (57589174 Newtons) I wonder what would happen if he put his whole body into something, or struggled/strained with all his might against something hmm...lets investigate some possibilities;

Further investigation

So 78x is still effortless for Raziel. What of the next order of magnitude, if he found that easy, lets assume he finds another 78x on top of that requiring at least some exertion for him, which would mean he could output up to 4.49 Giganewtons. That is amazing, and well, if he was going all out, as in applying all his muscles, legs and the full force of his efforts we may see a great deal beyond that. For the sake of fun 4.49 GN applied to the tip of his claw tip against kain (1 mm square, probably less) would apply over 4 Petapascals of pressure and still be unable to harm Kains skin.

So lets discuss Kain, his skin based on this lowball would be capable of 4 Petapascals of resistance without a scratch. But what of his strength;

investigation into Kains strength

So here we see Kain quite easilybreaking Raziels hold, he also applies one of his own by grabbing Raziel.

The amazing part is we can see Raziel, the guy who can without effort apply millions-billions of newtons of force casually moving blocks struggling with his whole body, both arms and his upper torso. And Kain casually holds him with one arm! , Raziel's efforts show him helpless without all his force even being able to waver the torque in Kains wrist! let alone break his hold or move his arm away. Its a lowball atop a lowball so I understand it is not fair on him but if we assume Kains effortless is only the same as Raziels by multiplying Raziels "effort" estimation above (by 78x) Kain would be outputting 350 GN (Giganewtons) in just the torque of his wrist! [/quote]



Older Math concerning Kains physical capabilities.

Some new, more precise math was found after some discussion and I have revitalized the "physical capabilities" of Kain section on the first post but I dont want to remove other peoples workings or old work, so ill put it here in case of future discussion;

Spoiler
He punches the rock and creates a hole that gives him a way to grasp and pull the stone. There is a measure of indentation harness of materials called the Brinell Hardness Scale that describes the force required to press a round ball of a given diameter (typically 10mm) into the material. The formula that they use is:

Image

where F = normal force applied in newtons, D = diameter of the indenter in mm, and d = diameter of indentation in mm.



Just for fun here's a back-of-the-envelope calculation: to completely push the ball into the material means D=d, and we can rearrange this to become:

Image

Mild steel has a hardess of about 120 and tool steel around 1500, so we can probably guess that granite might be a bit softer than tool steel - let's call it 1000. If we assume that the character's claws are each about 20 mm in diameter we get:

F = (1000 x pi x 20^2)/0.204 = 6.2 million newtons, or about 1.4 million pounds.


This is much greater than the weight of that block, so he'd be better off just pushing it rather than using this technique. Also note that his claws must be made of a material much harder than the stone - perhaps diamond!


Note that the guy in question stated that any normal stone would actually fracture on a strike such as this in reality and note he did say its incredibly hard to calculate for the claw, hence why he calculated it blunt. Since smaller surface areas increase pressure the final figures would have to be run through pressure calculation to find out actual damage for claws.

Mea quidem sententia from Factpile had this calculation on the matter;

Spoiler
•I wish the Brinell scale had something for granite. Granite is harder than copper, however.
•There are different types of steel.
•Say we used 200 HB instead. That’s stainless steel.
•(200 * π * 20^2) / 0.204 = 1.2 million newtons, or 137.9 tons.


Aelfinn from Factpile has another calculation on the same subject;

Spoiler
Well, I’ve got a different calculation for you (honestly, that calculation should have raised eyebrows).
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The highest granite on the Moh’s scale from this website has a hardness of 2.1.
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http://www.rockbreaker.com/index.php?op ... d=821:rock
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I’ll round up to 2.5, which converts to a 102 on the Vickers scale.
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http://www.cidraprecisionservices.com/m ... rsion.html
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The Vickers number is equal to about (.1891 times the Force divided by the diameter squared)
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_hardness_test
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Solving for Force assuming 20 mm diameter equals 215758 Newtons


I did my own calculation based from that force, considering Raziel has sharp claws, small surface area would increase pressure so;

Spoiler
Heres some extra math using the above numbers, Raziels claws are sharp, not blunt or flat, therefore a pressure calculation is in order. If he excerts 215k newtons force and I assume Raziels claw tip has a surface area of about 1 square mm since admittedly I cant measure the exact claw tips SA, this is fairly large or a sharp tip but Raziel excerts the following pressure on Kain;


215758N / 0.000001 m squared= 2157580 bar


Mea on Raziel and blocks.


Spoiler
Mea;

Based on Brinell 10 mm Standard 500 kgf (HB 500), that would make the Brinell hardness number 189. (The link is below.) This would make the force 1,164,561 N, or 130.9 tons of force. The number isn’t as ridiculously large, and from my other calculation with Kain destroying those stalagmites, which was calced at being 164 short tons, that seems reasonable.


The discussion and the math original location is here;

http://www.factpile.com/10135-starkille ... ent-548463

The main discussion starts and ends between posts 40 and 75. It revolves around the estimation of what the cube raziel claws into is made of, limestone was eventually decided as the most reasonable and likely candidate, due to the sound and movement of the block, its common use in construction and the fact that he previous estimation of granite may have shattered on impact, wheras limestone being a little more malleable would not be so vulnerable.


Mea on Raziel output pressure

Spoiler
Meas Calc

You said the tip of Raziel’s claw is assumed to be 1 mm^2. Since the tip of his claws only made contact, rather than his entire claw thrusting into Kain, D would equal 20 mm and d would equal 1 mm. The calculator will square these. We’ll also use 189 for the BHN. You end up with 1,560 N, or 350.75 pounds of force.

So if I do what you did, 1,560 N / 0.001^2 would be equal to 1,560,000,000 pascals (1.56 Gigapascals). This is a step below the calculation you ended up with (1.16 petapascals). That’s still pretty high, though. According to Wolfram | Alpha, that’s approximately 20 times the tensile strength of a carbon nanotube.

This calc puts a square mm of kains skin around the hardness of diamond.
Last edited by Kitten Lord on Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:53 am, edited 19 times in total.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:01 pm

Amm0vamp1r3 wrote:Again if he has no showings then there is no point to make the claim
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Kains sword broke because they were the same entity so a paradox was created,if im remembering right, No showings over words is in all cases because People have said my attack is like an exploding sun,yet im pretty sure these were just words,Actually I don't recall them saying the Soul Reaver is like Raziels Maw
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But the thing is Defiance even if he he is fighting humans, and raziel and demons etc etc So just because they were humans doesn't mean he is going to use them in combat anytime he wants unless showings are given to support such, Soul Reaver 1 and Soul Reaver 2 kain does use it against Raziel but in Defiance he doesn'tm He doesn;t teleport to Mobius when he had the altercation with him
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Yea they are mechanics but that if he had them then he could have used them but players weren't given in the option which leads me to belive he didn't have them because he sword just went through a big change by becoming complete and restoring him to the guardian of balance, And the bat symbols make sense because why turn into bats and such when you aren't trying to leave which is why he uses the bat symbole and he can't break walls with TK because they need to be weakend or cracked for his TK to have enough force to break them same for the leap he needs to focus it,which means he only uses it when he has time and needs to, neither of these are the same has the player not having the option to use reaver powers
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Showings do not negate all of a characters power set just because of circumstances, Vampire hunter D does not only have powers portrayed in the last book, Superman does not lose all powers prior to what is shown in his last comic etc....theres clear power sets for each character and how they use their powers, Kain has proven he uses magic, teleportation, his sword in easy combination.

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The exact reason is because the reaver could not devour its own soul, if your theory on the sword not being able to devour souls on strike like Kain claims it does then it wouldnt have exploded on strike on Raziel. Thats different, charatcers in comics claiming that is just that, words but the game shows us that the soul reaver devours souls by striking its enemies, thats what the wraith blade and Raziel is afterall. This is not a question purely on what Kain is saying is happening but also you would need a reason to think Kain is lieing, espcially when we know hes not based on what the soul reaver is, Raziels soul devouring in a sword.

--


In Defiance there is no cutscene of a major battle, your premise suggests characters can only use powers used in their last battles but your ignoring context, as per the comic Kain can easily slice up humans without effort, theres no logical reason why he would use magic on them, yet theres no canon suggesting he cant or wouldnt, kain happily uses magic in SR 1 and 2, its the same Kain. He doesnt teleport to Moebius because he doesnt know where he is until later on, theres also the fact Kain could have turned into mist or bats and flown up there as well, Kain decides not to does not mean Kain wouldnt in combat since he has done so (used teleport) in combat. Kains more intelligent than any human, hes got no reservation against using his powers. In the Goku vs Itachi thread you were all for saying Goku would rush just because Soulerous pointed out decades ago tournaments when he was young,yet your argueing that Kain wont use powers he used months ago vs Raziel, or teleportation he used weeks ago in Soul reaver 2 as if the two Kains from those games are diferent people.

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Thier just mechanics, just because a player does not have the option does not mean the character cannot do it. Kain has more than enough power to slice through foes wit ease but that is not negated just because enemies in the game take like 5 hits with his sword, their mechanics. The sword itself just gained Raziel as a host, it gained power but there was no discussion about it losing power, no canon that suggests the emblems stopped working just because players cant use them. Kain could have many uses for bats, point is the player cant use them outside of the games specific points, does that mean Kain cant? no....Kain does it every time he touches water or falls as well, that doesnt mean he cant any time he likes. Kains TK as I have shown in the respect thread has enough power to smash tons of rock into shards, a huge amount of power, yet you think thin brick walls or wooden doors could stop him? of course not, it just stops the player, same with every game. Even the old hulk and justice league games dont allow you to smash through things your not supposed to, their just game mechanics, same with Kain/players not having access to all his abilities in every game. What a player has access to at any given time is differnt to what a character has access to, player choice and capabilities are not canon are they, only the games storyline is and at no point does anyone say Kains emblems stopped working, nor is there a logical reason for it in the games canon.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Amm0vamp1r3 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:44 pm

"
Showings do not negate all of a characters power set just because of circumstances, Vampire hunter D does not only have powers portrayed in the last book, Superman does not lose all powers prior to what is shown in his last comic etc....theres clear power sets for each character and how they use their powers, Kain has proven he uses magic, teleportation, his sword in easy combination."
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Very true he does have all these powers and if he was in a bloodlusted state I would think he would use them all but If he keeps character, they only teleportation he shows is in Soul Reaver 1 and 2 when fighting raziel (if I recall right) I don't recall any thing else besides the Dimension reaver, so in current state (which is Soul reaver through defiance) he use Teleportation against 1 person in combat,Kind of like Goku since he is popular on the site,he has solar flare but he only doesn;t use it in combat in his most current incarnatios,so saying he would when facing some one really doesn't make sense unless you have showings for why
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"The exact reason is because the reaver could not devour its own soul, if your theory on the sword not being able to devour souls on strike like Kain claims it does then it wouldnt have exploded on strike on Raziel. Thats different, charatcers in comics claiming that is just that, words but the game shows us that the soul reaver devours souls by striking its enemies, thats what the wraith blade and Raziel is afterall. This is not a question purely on what Kain is saying is happening but also you would need a reason to think Kain is lieing, espcially when we know hes not based on what the soul reaver is, Raziels soul devouring in a sword. "
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Point Concede on this one
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In Defiance there is no cutscene of a major battle, your premise suggests characters can only use powers used in their last battles but your ignoring context, as per the comic Kain can easily slice up humans without effort, theres no logical reason why he would use magic on them, yet theres no canon suggesting he cant or wouldnt, kain happily uses magic in SR 1 and 2, its the same Kain. He doesnt teleport to Moebius because he doesnt know where he is until later on, theres also the fact Kain could have turned into mist or bats and flown up there as well, Kain decides not to does not mean Kain wouldnt in combat since he has done so (used teleport) in combat. Kains more intelligent than any human, hes got no reservation against using his powers. In the Goku vs Itachi thread you were all for saying Goku would rush just because Soulerous pointed out decades ago tournaments when he was young,yet your argueing that Kain wont use powers he used months ago vs Raziel, or teleportation he used weeks ago in Soul reaver 2 as if the two Kains from those games are diferent people. "
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Actually its not the same kain,current kain isn't corrupt since he was purified but thats just nitpicking,Goku rushing my statements are "The thing is people think because he is honorable he will stand there like an idiot and let anyone he ever fights gets the first hit in no matter who it is" "I think the whole Goku fights honorably thing is being taken to an extreme
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He fights you at your best,like a samurai but he doesn’t hold back in a fight" So im didn't say he would just open up and destory his opponent but he isn't going to fight everone the same like people suggest, He doesn't teleport to anyone in combat, Soul Reaver 1 I don't really remember but I can play it or look it up to see how he uses his teleportation and soul reaver 2 he teleports away from Raziel in the Opening
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"Thier just mechanics, just because a player does not have the option does not mean the character cannot do it. Kain has more than enough power to slice through foes wit ease but that is not negated just because enemies in the game take like 5 hits with his sword, their mechanics. The sword itself just gained Raziel as a host, it gained power but there was no discussion about it losing power, no canon that suggests the emblems stopped working just because players cant use them. Kain could have many uses for bats, point is the player cant use them outside of the games specific points, does that mean Kain cant? no....Kain does it every time he touches water or falls as well, that doesnt mean he cant any time he likes. Kains TK as I have shown in the respect thread has enough power to smash tons of rock into shards, a huge amount of power, yet you think thin brick walls or wooden doors could stop him? of course not, it just stops the player, same with every game. Even the old hulk and justice league games dont allow you to smash through things your not supposed to, their just game mechanics, same with Kain/players not having access to all his abilities in every game. What a player has access to at any given time is differnt to what a character has access to, player choice and capabilities are not canon are they, only the games storyline is and at no point does anyone say Kains emblems stopped working, nor is there a logical reason for it in the games canon."
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I know what a game mechanic is, but nothing implys that the sword keeps its prior powers, because when you get it in bloodomen 1 it doesn't have any powers, Soul reaver 1 and 2 no powers, and if I remember right,Blood omen 2 no powers,Now I don't know how the chronolgy works reaver wise but the Soul Reaver has no powers in any incarnation,and thats why I don't think he still has the Blood Reaver Powers I didn't see the TK smashing rocks so Ill have to look at that before I comeback to that, (if it can then yea that is a game mechanic so you can't just carve through the game and I will concede that point) Like I said I know what a game mechanic is and not ever thing is a game mechanic sometimes it is a restriction on the character
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:09 pm

Amm0vamp1r3 wrote:"
Very true he does have all these powers and if he was in a bloodlusted state I would think he would use them all but If he keeps character, they only teleportation he shows is in Soul Reaver 1 and 2 when fighting raziel (if I recall right) I don't recall any thing else besides the Dimension reaver, so in current state (which is Soul reaver through defiance) he use Teleportation against 1 person in combat,Kind of like Goku since he is popular on the site,he has solar flare but he only doesn;t use it in combat in his most current incarnatios,so saying he would when facing some one really doesn't make sense unless you have showings for why


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Yes but the fact this one person is all he really fights in those games is relevent, another way to say it is Kain uses teleportation, magic and his sword to some degree in 100% of his fights in soulreaver 1 and 2, in Soul reaver 2 he uses teleportation instead of walking, so its not like he has trouble using teleportation for his needs, he uses it often, as you said thats current incarnation. Yeah but Goku uses a lot of powers throughout his entire series and has a lot of opponents, he chooses what he thinks he needs for each opponent, but Kain does not have a specific fighting style per say that he uses like Goku and his only somewhat equel opponent is Raziel and Kain doesnt want to kill Raziel for obvious reasons. If you agree current incarnation includes Kain since Soul reaver 1 which is true, then Kain has no problem using teleportation in combat, the only time we know he didnt use it is against humans in that fight int he comic, but thats context based, afterall why would Kain use it in this situation, he can kill them with his hands? saying he woudnt is like saying Lara croft from Tomb raider wouldnt use a grappling hook to get somewhere just because she used her ice pick to climb in the last area, that doesnt mean she cant think on her feet, same if she had pistols or used a bow in a previous battle doesnt mean she would ignore the sniper rifle or machinegun she finds later or wouldnt use it. I think all characters have some form of common sense unless it can be proven they will use a specific fighting style consistently, Kain does not, Kain uses what he needs for any specific circumstance, he even breaks his soul reaver because he wants to set his plans in action.


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Point Concede on this one


Fair enough

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Actually its not the same kain,current kain isn't corrupt since he was purified but thats just nitpicking,Goku rushing my statements are "The thing is people think because he is honorable he will stand there like an idiot and let anyone he ever fights gets the first hit in no matter who it is" "I think the whole Goku fights honorably thing is being taken to an extreme
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He fights you at your best,like a samurai but he doesn’t hold back in a fight" So im didn't say he would just open up and destory his opponent but he isn't going to fight everone the same like people suggest, He doesn't teleport to anyone in combat, Soul Reaver 1 I don't really remember but I can play it or look it up to see how he uses his teleportation and soul reaver 2 he teleports away from Raziel in the Opening


True but if you say Kain wouldnt use any spells just because he didnt use them against humans in the comic is taking things ot the extreme as well, afterall he has no qualms against those powers, hell he uses a bit of magic in the Soul reaver 2 intro just to re-iterate his point to Raziel that their like Gods. Theres no point where Kain is said to avoid using magic if he can depending on context. Granted if Kain is fighting a normal human being, like if Kain vs Lara croft came up we could say without a doubt he would use his sword and TK like he did in the comic but against superhumans like Raziel he used teleportation in all their fights, and when he wants to travel long distances or avoid his opponents he uses teleportation throughout Soul reaver 1 and 2, Defiance he never needs teleprotation so it makes sense he doesnt use it.

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In soul reaver 1 he teleports in their first fight and shoots spells at Raziel, who has to catch up to Kain before he releases the spell. In soul reaver 2 in teleports in the opening true, proving he uses it even when someone is trying to attack him, Kains pretty lazy, when it comes to teleport he uses it often rather than walking in most cases apart from when hes looking around the Sarafan stronghold in Defiance.
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I know what a game mechanic is, but nothing implys that the sword keeps its prior powers, because when you get it in bloodomen 1 it doesn't have any powers, Soul reaver 1 and 2 no powers, and if I remember right,Blood omen 2 no powers,Now I don't know how the chronolgy works reaver wise but the Soul Reaver has no powers in any incarnation,and thats why I don't think he still has the Blood Reaver Powers I didn't see the TK smashing rocks so Ill have to look at that before I comeback to that, (if it can then yea that is a game mechanic so you can't just carve through the game and I will concede that point) Like I said I know what a game mechanic is and not ever thing is a game mechanic sometimes it is a restriction on the character



Why wouldnt it keep its powers? the only thing that happens is the sword gains Raziel inside it, but theres no question of it decreasing the reavers other abilities, I cant see why it would logically. I mean, you say Blood omen 1 it doesnt but we dont know that, infact Kain doesnt know about the emblems in Blood omen does he, same with 2. The soul reaver doesnt really get used in Soul reaver 1 and 2 other than in 1 briefly by Kain to start the prophecy, its not like Kain is trying to use it to kill Raziel, he knows he cant.

Maybe some things are a restriction on the character, but to say something is for definite canonically has to be discussed in advance. I mean players dont have access to a lot of powers Kain or Raziel have in all the games, many things are mechanics and many are just player restrictions, not necesserily character ones. Its the same in most games, players cant make Dante do all the things he does in the cutscenes, same with Kratos, you can only climb and smash things the game allows you to smash, obviously in reality Kratos would smash through a lot of objects rather than do the puzzles but that would be boring, but considering his strength and the fact he generally does smash through walls suggests the players not being able to is game design.

I mean if we take this as a game point of view, imagine how complicated controls would have to be to properly control Kain turning into bats and flying around, while having acess to a dozen or so spells and items etc. The controls will be crazy, hopefully the new Legacy of Kain game will have new powers though, and better mechanics/acess to powers since controls and game systems have come a long way.
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Amm0vamp1r3 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:14 pm

"True but if you say Kain wouldnt use any spells just because he didnt use them against humans in the comic is taking things ot the extreme as well, afterall he has no qualms against those powers, hell he uses a bit of magic in the Soul reaver 2 intro just to re-iterate his point to Raziel that their like Gods. Theres no point where Kain is said to avoid using magic if he can depending on context. Granted if Kain is fighting a normal human being, like if Kain vs Lara croft came up we could say without a doubt he would use his sword and TK like he did in the comic but against superhumans like Raziel he used teleportation in all their fights, and when he wants to travel long distances or avoid his opponents he uses teleportation throughout Soul reaver 1 and 2, Defiance he never needs teleprotation so it makes sense he doesnt use it. "
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Point Conceded
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"In soul reaver 1 he teleports in their first fight and shoots spells at Raziel, who has to catch up to Kain before he releases the spell. In soul reaver 2 in teleports in the opening true, proving he uses it even when someone is trying to attack him, Kains pretty lazy, when it comes to teleport he uses it often rather than walking in most cases apart from when hes looking around the Sarafan stronghold in Defiance. "
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Point Conceded
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"Why wouldnt it keep its powers? the only thing that happens is the sword gains Raziel inside it, but theres no question of it decreasing the reavers other abilities, I cant see why it would logically. I mean, you say Blood omen 1 it doesnt but we dont know that, infact Kain doesnt know about the emblems in Blood omen does he, same with 2. The soul reaver doesnt really get used in Soul reaver 1 and 2 other than in 1 briefly by Kain to start the prophecy, its not like Kain is trying to use it to kill Raziel, he knows he cant.

Maybe some things are a restriction on the character, but to say something is for definite canonically has to be discussed in advance. I mean players dont have access to a lot of powers Kain or Raziel have in all the games, many things are mechanics and many are just player restrictions, not necesserily character ones. Its the same in most games, players cant make Dante do all the things he does in the cutscenes, same with Kratos, you can only climb and smash things the game allows you to smash, obviously in reality Kratos would smash through a lot of objects rather than do the puzzles but that would be boring, but considering his strength and the fact he generally does smash through walls suggests the players not being able to is game design.

I mean if we take this as a game point of view, imagine how complicated controls would have to be to properly control Kain turning into bats and flying around, while having acess to a dozen or so spells and items etc. The controls will be crazy, hopefully the new Legacy of Kain game will have new powers though, and better mechanics/acess to powers since controls and game systems have come a long way."
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Re: Kain the Scion of Balance (legacy of Kain) [Discussion]

Postby Kitten Lord » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:52 am

I updated the page, changed some things around and more importantly. I added a contents page on the first post, allowing anyone to link to link quickly to a specific area of the respect thread.
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