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Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

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Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby ZomBninjasamurai » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:37 am

Okay, I know everyone has noticed it, but noone's tried to do anything about it. Yes, there are some things we can't help but let's focus on what we can.

Warning!: This will not be pretty, and you probably shouldn't read on if you can't handle criticism.

List has been updated with Debating Parts 1 and 2, and part three from OriginalA. As well as Part 4 from theobserver.

✪ Suggesting stupid matches (Part 1) - Quit suggesting matches that will get no debate. When noone knows a character being debated, noones gonna debate. Ex: Kusagari Hero Vs The Prince of Persia, Toriko vs Final M Bison

✪ Suggesting stupid matches (Part 2) - Do some damn research before you suggest a match, when you suggest a match with characters that at first glance look somewhat similar. But are vastly different in power, it will get to maybe 100 comments if a troll doesn't come along, and will have solved nothing a few minutes of research couldn't. Ex: Deadpool vs Deathstroke

✪ Suggesting stupid matches (Part 3) - Don't suggest matches where there can be no winner, (Usually due to unquantifiability) and you know it. Ex: Darkseid Vs Saint of Killers or the Cartoon Network Civil war that everyone's so abuzz about. Lastly, probably the epitome of this, Odin Vs Khorne.

✪ Suggesting stupid matches (Part 4) - Spite matches, whats the point? Ex: Dante, Alucard, Vampire Hunter D, Ryu Hayabusa, & Kratos Vs Holy Shonen Trinity

✪ Debating (Part 1) - Read the damn scenario, reading the scenario will take you at most five minutes, and will save you from making a comment about something that isn't even part of the match.

✪ Debating (Part 2) - Don't discuss unrelated or upcoming matches, that's what the forum is for, if you're reading this and have done so, you have no excuse.

✪ Debating (Part 3)[From OriginalA]: ... supply proof! It seems to me that many claims are now not being challenged, not backed up by evidence, or just taken by word of mouth. Now for the more known characters I can understand this; after all how boring would it be to read through what and why Master Chief can do what he can do for the umpteenth time? But at the same time people are not calling other people out on enough stuff either. I've recently been called out on the Ganondorf vs Soma thread and after some digging I found out that not only was the other guy right, but there were more examples of what he was talking about than even he knew about! Prior to that guy everyone had been working under the claim in question for quite some time while the match still was full of steam.

✪Debating (Part 4)[From theobserver]: Speed isn't the only factor to a victory. It appears that the typical FP match is now mostly speed based and beyond that hardly anyone ever considers anything else. Explore other options and don't throw in the towel simply because one combatant is faster than the other. Of course this only extends if the fight wasn't an outright stomp from the very beginning anyway. So this can also go under research since people can also find alternatives for counter-abilities if given enough time.
Last edited by ZomBninjasamurai on Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:29 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby OriginalA » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:18 am

For Part 1... Kusagari Hero vs Prince of Persia actually sounds like a pretty cool match depending on which Prince you are talking about. Then again I know both characters too, which reminds me I should finish playing Red Steel 2. That match would be horribly unbalanced though without a handicap in the Prince's favor due to gun > sword. *one moment please* Ah... it seems this has actually been posted... with a handicap. I think I might jump on this later.

EDIT: Actually, that is just plain stomp. The Last Kusagari is superhuman. With a gun that just... uhg. /EDIT

For Part 2: I send people to the 'Topia's Verses Match Aide topic whenever I see people starting to brain storm about new match ideas. The lack of basic research is horrible though and could prevent a lot of problems. The same Verses Match Aide topic does allow people to say "no, that is a bad idea because X" though, so that does mitigate some of the problem, but not a lot of people use it. The Metroid vs Flood match got spammed with Percy Jackson vs Space Pirate Generals brainstorming: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1626

For Part 3: I both agree and disagree with this. On the one hand, it isn't fun to completely finish a debate and only come to the conclusion that a conclusion cannot be reached. On the other hand, it isn't always so simple for that conclusion to be reached in the first place. If it is easy to reach, see Part 1.

For Part 4: I don't understand Spite Matches. If anything I would say either talk to one of the administrators for the 'Topia to set up a Spite Match thread so people can talk to their hearts content about how much satisfaction they would gain from seeing Flandre Scarlet show Edward Cullen how a REAL Vampire does battle, or just do what Negative Zero does and post it in the Vs section of the Lounge on MovieCodec.com, which is filled with spite threads already.

On the whole, I agree with just about everything you said.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby Matapiojo » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:28 am

#3 stood out to me. It did so because I agree for the most part, but there are, however, some exceptions. Pitting one largely unknown cosmic abstract against another is a good example of what to stay away from, but the particular example used of Darkseid vs Saint of Killers is not a good one for that argument. They MAY have semi-unquantifiable elements, but the characters themselves are not unquantifiable.

The "MAY" is the keyword in that sentence. Oftentimes, we have seen great debates taking place when people are ignorant of unquantifiable elements as both sides explore all avenues to give those same elements some substance. I for one think the Omega Effect, and the Saint's pistols have some more room to be argued to satisfaction. So yes, I do agree with you that if something is unquantifiable or abstract we should generally stay away from it, but I feel like people sometimes resort to lazyness in calling things unquantifiable prior to actually doing the work of PROVING they ARE unquantifiable in the first place.

I think the bottom line is that laziness is rulling the day in the pile. People just want quick and easy battle results and answers to their questions. This is more a detriment of today's youth than an exclussive issue of the site, though. The wealth of info available to kids today is staggering to the point of it being taken for granted. I honestly do not see the mainland getting any better unless it attracts more debaters over the age of 25.

If you've never had to rely on an actual enciclopedia - sitting on your bookshelf or at your local library/school - to do homework, you will likely not have the necesary attention to WANT to research elements in a debate. ITs as simple as that. Smart phones with google have made sure to kill that key element in young minds. If the answer is not found in the search engine's sumary of the first five results (wikis often being in the top 3), kids today will not bother to look any further.

That's just the nature of our nation's condition. There is a very real reason why foreign professionals are muscling their way into our upper-tier workforce today, and you have to look no further to understand why than reading over some of the debates going on in the mainland to understand why...
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby Hitman H94 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:21 am

I definitely agree with part 1....will add more when can be bothered...
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby ZomBninjasamurai » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:02 pm

@OriginalA Thank you, I myself know nothing of Kusagari Hero, and have my doubts many people who often visit the site play Red Steel, or even the Wii. That is a brilliant thread Jwlynas made, and it saddens me everytime I see someone discuss an unrelated match on the mainland. I also kinda like the idea of a spite matches thread.

@Matapiojo I agree wholeheartedly with most everything you said, and it would be nice to see some older debaters on the site.

As a side note, I added new stuff to the original post.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby OriginalA » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:07 pm

Um... You're welcome about me knowing someone obscure vg characters? Anyways, I actually think the Kusagari vs Prince falls under the Matches Part 2 point. It is a cool match, but so is Samus vs Master Chief.

For Debating Part 1: Agreed.

For Debating Part 2: Absolutely agreed. EDIT: Although I do not mind off topic Post Scripts. A paragraph or two about a divergent or unrelated matter at the end of an extended on topic post seems alright with me. Completely off-topic posts are a bother though. /EDIT

I would like to add a tentative Debating (Part 3): ... supply proof! It seems to me that many claims are now not being challenged, not backed up by evidence, or just taken by word of mouth. Now for the more known characters I can understand this; after all how boring would it be to read through what and why Master Chief can do what he can do for the umpteenth time? But at the same time people are not calling other people out on enough stuff either. I've recently been called out on the Ganondorf vs Soma thread and after some digging I found out that not only was the other guy right, but there were more examples of what he was talking about than even he knew about! Prior to that guy everyone had been working under the claim in question for quite some time while the match still was full of steam.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby Deathtanker » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:19 pm

ZomBninjasamurai wrote:
✪ Debating (Part 2) - Don't discuss unrelated or upcoming matches, that's what the forum is for, if you're reading this and have done so, you have no excuse.


I've repeatedly tried to beat this into the skulls of a great many - even some of those here if my memory is worth anything (it commonly isn't), but with each successive wave of new fish - it just repeats.... and repeats.... and repeats..... and repeats..... and repeats.... I tired of it and at the end of the day - unless we (as in - more people than just me) make a sustained effort; nothin' is gonna change.

Quite honestly - I've pretty much given up on the mainland. Its rot is deep and self-sustaining; while our own actions to change it back are weak and scatter-brained.

If you want, I can submit an article chain to address the issues its seems we all share, but.... it would actually need a sustained commitment for all of us to get through to any effect and not seem like one nut-job (me) talking to a bunch of newbies.... who probably don't even know who I am nor recognize my experience now that stars are gone. I just don't see it happening and I'm not expecting it to mysteriously 'appear' after such a long period of continual decay with the older members just shying away from it all.

So...... in summation -

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Cuz I've been saying this for awhile now.... and complaining sure ain't doin' nothing.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby OriginalA » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:47 pm

Deathtanker wrote:Cuz I've been saying this for awhile now.... and complaining sure ain't doin' nothing.


I don't disagree with this, but having a compiled list of all of the things that we have identified as "wrong" is the start of a solution. After all, you can't fix something if you can't identify the source of the problem.

Acknowledging points as "wrong" can help everyone decide what should be the acceptable "right" code of behavior. What is "right" and "wrong" needs to be fully identified before actions are taken to enforce them. Once those have been identified, we can ask for the assistance of more authoritative people, such as Admin or people whom Admin delegates responsibilities too, to enforce them. This is how the Factpile Rules got revised. At first there were none, and this was a problem. Admin put down a few ideas but there were holes in them. Those holes were identified after analysis and now we have the current version of the rules.

It would not be hard to add a section to the rules about what should and should not be in posts, but it needs to be decided beforehand what a post should and should not consist of. Already there is a divergent opinion about what should be in a posts in this very thread. OP said no-off-topic information. Period. I don't mind it as long as it is kept to the P.S. This is a difference of opinion and it needs to be resolved before there is any chance of enforcing one in favor of the other.

So, yes, complaining about the problems doesn't accomplish anything. What measures individuals have been taking to counter "sloppy debating" has thus far been ineffective. Neither of that means we should not talk about what the problems are. They need to be identified, evaluated for appropriate solutions, and then those solutions need to be enacted. This is just a regrouping thread so that everyone who doesn't like how things are happening can gather together and help create an effective solution.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby Deathtanker » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:39 pm

OriginalA wrote: This is just a regrouping thread so that everyone who doesn't like how things are happening can gather together and help create an effective solution.


I await with baited breathe. Indeed, if we could get the rules to reflect our wishes to return the debates to a modicum of debate and thereby enforceable - all well and good. However, something tells me Admin would be hesitant to add and/or enforce said guidelines. I'm highly skeptical about the whole thing, but I'm willing to support it. Be nice to roll some new fish heads again for a time.
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Re: Progressive decline of debate quality on the mainland.

Postby ZomBninjasamurai » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:22 pm

@OriginalA I was thanking you for posting your thoughts on the matter as I would like to thank everyone who has posted their thoughts in this thread. Also I posted your "Debating (Part 3)" on the original post.

@Deathtanker A series of posts certainly couldn't hurt, and may bring it to the attention of admin. It may also bring other peoples attention to the issues. I also however think we need to identify all of the issues. With that said, any post on this matter would have my full support.
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