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Alucard vs Dante

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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:37 pm

Its stated in the game?

That the seal was put in place before Sparda went in hell to face him?
When?
It says something about his perception of the job that needs to be done at the very least. If you have a rifle and decide to go hunting you don't decide to then bring a rocket launcher? What little we have to go on about the battle doesn't imply that Sparda more or less solo'd the fight. He's only described as "aid" and Matier described it as "Fighting with Sparda" it doesn't sound like they didn't exactly do their fair share in the conflict.

That example falls apart because Sparda in this situation didn't have the "rocket launcher" to begin with. All he had was the rifle. He only got the former later on. So trying to say that using a greater ability against Argosax proves he's stronger is pointless because he never had the option to use that greater seal against Mundus in the first place.
Or rather to expand on your example, the problem here isn't the hunter choosing which weapon to use against the target. The problem is that the hunter only had one weapon beforehand in the past and now has several weapons that he can choose from.
If the hunter had a bow and arrow and was forced to face a bear, and managed to kill him.
And then later on in his life the hunter obtained a rifle, and then was forced to face a bear, and killed him again.
Is the bear that he recently faced somehow stronger than the one he faced in the past, just because he has a better weapon now?
No, it isn't. Just because he has a better weapon doesn't mean that the bear was tougher. But using a rifle against a bear would be preferable to a bow and arrow regardless, no?
That's the situation Sparda is in right now. Sparda, unlike anytime before in his entire life, now has the option to work with powerful allies in order to produce a seal stronger than any he's previously made before, in order to save the world. Of course he's going to jump at the chance to do so. It didn't matter how powerful Argosax was, there's no reason to slack off on saving the world just because the enemy he's facing is only as strong or weaker than the one he faced before.
The info we have to go on blatantly stated that it was Sparda that went on to defeat Argosax. Both his enemy file and Matier confirmed this. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say he didn't solo him; he explicitly did. As far as the clan's share in the conflict, it should be remembered that it wasn't just Argosax they were fighting but also his demon army; when she first meets Dante Matier says that Sparda and her clan defeated the demons, as in plural. So just because Sparda defeated Argosax doesn't mean that they didn't take any part in the overall conflict, especially since to top off their participation they worked with Sparda to create a seal stronger than any he had previously done before. Sparda beating Argosax was just one part of the battle.
And regardless for Argosax to have become king of the demon world he would have had to take control from Mundus.

Unless, you know, Mundus was powerless.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:06 am

1.) The seal sends him back to hell, Entering hell closes the portal (We see this in game), Sparda still finds his way back to the human world (Also stated).

2.) This doesn't contradict sparda defeating him. He defeats him by sealing and help from the protectorate, but he couldn't kill him.

3.) The point isn't if he had the option before but that using way more resources and outside help in a similar situation he was only able to produce similar results.

4.) In the examples you use its still hard to kill a bear with a bow and arrow. Sparda single handedly defeated Mundus and his entire army and the sealed him and the entire rift between the human world and demon world. With outside help Sparda was only able to seal Argosax and he even used a more powerful seal to do it that required 4 magical artifacts. You're argument requires the assumption that sparda could have sealed him alone and without the arcana which I see no evidence for.

5) There is no evidence Mundus was powerless.
All descriptions we are given simply say he was sealed back to the underworld.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:08 am

What happened to the site?
Anyways.
1.) The seal sends him back to hell, Entering hell closes the portal (We see this in game), Sparda still finds his way back to the human world (Also stated).

The situation isn't the same. Arius was trying to open a portal that was already previously sealed. Matier's clan were the ones that sealed the portal in the first place. Their the reason why it's closed. The only way Sparda would have had the portal close behind him is if the clan decided to do so, which couldn't be the case if Sparda also helped them to seal Argosax as well. Hence why I asked for proof that they sealed Argosax before Sparda went to Hell, as that's never mentioned in the game and honestly contradicts what we already know.
This doesn't contradict sparda defeating him. He defeats him by sealing and help from the protectorate, but he couldn't kill him.

It doesn't say "Sparda and the Protectorate defeated him". It said "Sparda defeated him". Nothing more than that. The only indication we have with the clan's involvement in the situation is that they helped Sparda seal him, not that they helped to defeat him in battle.
3.) The point isn't if he had the option before but that using way more resources and outside help in a similar situation he was only able to produce similar results.

I think herein lies the problem. You seem to think that he produced similar results, but the seal used against Argosax was vastly more effective than the one used against Mundus. Mundus, by himself, eventually escaped the seal locking him in the demon world. Argosax did not-the only reason the seal was even opened again is because an arrogant mage tried to become a demon god and opened the portal to him. Argosax was incapable of getting out of hell without outside help. Mundus, in time, was.
4.) In the examples you use its still hard to kill a bear with a bow and arrow. Sparda single handedly defeated Mundus and his entire army and the sealed him and the entire rift between the human world and demon world. With outside help Sparda was only able to seal Argosax and he even used a more powerful seal to do it that required 4 magical artifacts. You're argument requires the assumption that sparda could have sealed him alone and without the arcana which I see no evidence for.

Of course it's still hard to kill a bear with a bow and arrow, I never argued that. In fact, that was my entire point; you can kill a bear with primitive weapons but using a rifle is easier right? The same is true with Sparda; his seal with the clan is simply better than the one by himself.
As for your last sentence, your making assumptions as well. There's no proof that the stronger seal was needed to lock him; this was never stated to be true. You're assuming that's the case as if there was no alternative reason for why Sparda did so, which I already provided.
5) There is no evidence Mundus was powerless.

Yes there is? I posted in the last page Trish outright stating that Mundus's powers were sealed by Sparda.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:04 pm

Oh shit the sites back
Well let's give some fresh new arguments since we took a few days off here.

It should be noted that argosax managed to break free from his seal even though it wasn't completely broken. Mundus had way more time for his seal to weaken.

Matier said Everything is the same as it was with Sparda

Saying
Dante defeated Arkham
Goku defeated kid buu
Batman defeated Superman (DKR)
are not incorrect. Sure they are missing a "yeah but" but none of them are false.

His powers could simply be sealed away from the human world. In fact Berial was with the army that was sealed by Sparda so if his seal made the demons there powerless Berial could not have ruled. Berial would have no reason to rule over Mundus.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:11 pm

Do you know why it was down in the first place?
It should be noted that argosax managed to break free from his seal even though it wasn't completely broken. Mundus had way more time for his seal to weaken.

Er, the seal was already broken though. Arius broke it using the arcana.
Saying
Dante defeated Arkham
Goku defeated kid buu
Batman defeated Superman (DKR)
are not incorrect. Sure they are missing a "yeah but" but none of them are false.

It definitely is incorrect though. Like maybe not with Batman v Superman since everything Bruce used there was his own tech, but both Goku and Dante had outside help with their opponents. Saying they defeated their enemies is not accurate at all; it was them plus their allies.
It doesn't really make any sense to mention that Sparda defeated Argosax and then fail to mention "well actually the clan helped a lot too". Like, that's a very crucial piece of the battle.
His powers could simply be sealed away from the human world. In fact Berial was with the army that was sealed by Sparda so if his seal made the demons there powerless Berial could not have ruled. Berial would have no reason to rule over Mundus.

Nothing suggests that the power restriction was only for the human world. If anything, we know that's not the case because again, it was stated that Berial was the only one left to rule due to the sealing of his father, which fits with Mundus being powerless. And it was never stated that the entire demon army had their powers sealed, only Mundus.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:27 pm

Arius couldn't break the seal fully though because he didn't have the 4th arcana. Dante did. That last 25% of the work has to be attributed to Argosax.

If Sparda sealed away Mundus's entire army why would that effect only apply to Mundus and not the rest of the demons there?

Batman had green arrows help in DKR. As long as the person involved played the biggest role you can say they defeated someone. This is very common in fiction. (Like all the examples I stated.)

That description is after Dante seals him not Sparda.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:38 pm

Actually another good example is Dante defeated Mundus with Trishes help since he was fatigued as hell before she lent him his power.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:21 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:Arius couldn't break the seal fully though because he didn't have the 4th arcana. Dante did. That last 25% of the work has to be attributed to Argosax.

If Sparda sealed away Mundus's entire army why would that effect only apply to Mundus and not the rest of the demons there?

Batman had green arrows help in DKR. As long as the person involved played the biggest role you can say they defeated someone. This is very common in fiction. (Like all the examples I stated.)

That description is after Dante seals him not Sparda.

Even so, the point is that Argosax did not do that alone. He had additional help breaking the seal. Mundus did not.

Both locking away the powers of both Mundus and the demon army in addition to BFRing both of them is considerably more impressive than locking away only Mundus's powers while BFRing them. Sparda likely just did not have enough juice.

I mistook the Batman you were talking about. Thought you were talking about BvS. In that case, the same applies to him. It doesn't matter how big a role someone might play in a group, saying that that person was responsible for defeating the enemy is blatantly untrue. That person might have contributed the most, but they alone cannot be held responsible for defeating the target.

Dante inherited his powers from Sparda, and the after effects of his seal line up directly with how Sparda's seal was described (making Mundus powerless).

ka-tet19 wrote:Actually another good example is Dante defeated Mundus with Trishes help since he was fatigued as hell before she lent him his power.

I would say the same thing about that as well.... though in Dante's case we at least know that he is capable of defeating Mundus when he is at full power.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:00 pm

1.) Mundus had Thousands of years for his seal to weaken Argosax had only hundreds.

2.) This would require Sparda to use multiple sealing techniques which is an unnecessary assumption. If Sparda uses one attack that has an effect on everyone it doesn't make sense that all the weaker demons wouldn't also become powerless. Isn't it also stated that Sparda sealed the rift between the demon and human world?

3.) It doesn't matter that you personally don't think it's fair to say "A defeated B" if he had outside help. The point is that in fiction situations that have outside help are still referred to as "A defeated B" to fit the narrative. This means that saying "Sparda defeated Argosax " doesn't mean that outside help could not have taken place. Especially when we know that the clan was involved with the sealing and Matier is said to have fought at Spardas side.

4 .) We have sufficiently derailed this thread debating a point that we seem to be in agreement about. Dante can seal Alucard. I recommend that we move on. If we're still interested in this topic we should either PM or start an off topic thread.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:13 pm

1.) Mundus had Thousands of years for his seal to weaken Argosax had only hundreds.

True, but Sparda's magic plus that of the clan would at least mean that it would take longer for the seal to break, if not remain permanent.
2.) This would require Sparda to use multiple sealing techniques which is an unnecessary assumption. If Sparda uses one attack that has an effect on everyone it doesn't make sense that all the weaker demons wouldn't also become powerless. Isn't it also stated that Sparda sealed the rift between the demon and human world?

Or the spell itself just does two things at once. Doesn't necessarily have to be two separate techniques.
As for it not making sense, I again repeat: Sparda's power has limits. It makes perfect sense that the secondary effect wouldn't necessarily affect everyone else; Sparda simply not having enough energy left to do so to both them and Mundus isn't unbelievable.
Yes, he did seal the rift.
3.) It doesn't matter that you personally don't think it's fair to say "A defeated B" if he had outside help. The point is that in fiction situations that have outside help are still referred to as "A defeated B" to fit the narrative. This means that saying "Sparda defeated Argosax " doesn't mean that outside help could not have taken place. Especially when we know that the clan was involved with the sealing and Matier is said to have fought at Spardas side.

That right there is a point you have yet to prove, though. I have never heard of anyone saying that Goku was the one who defeated Buu, instead of Goku and Vegeta. Nor have I ever heard of anyone saying that it was Bruce that was responsible for defeating Clark in that case instead of both him and Oliver.
It has nothing to do with what I think is fair; it has everything to do with what's accurate. Fact of the matter is, saying someone defeated an enemy when it was, in fact, more than one person is outright wrong. There is no other way around that.
And in any case? You cannot generalize all of fiction as if they have the same method for describing situations. Maybe there are fictions out there that do what your saying (though for the life of me I have never heard one doing this). But there are many other fictions that do not do that at all and, in fact, describe what actually happened in the situation instead of misinterpreting it. So unless there is proof that DMC is of the former, I think I'd rather go with what's stated instead of assuming that they neglected to ignore an important part of his fight.
Matier was said to have fought at Sparda's side against the demons. She never said she fought with him against Argosax. In fact she says the exact opposite; Sparda himself goes into hell fight Argosax.
4 .) We have sufficiently derailed this thread debating a point that we seem to be in agreement about. Dante can seal Alucard. I recommend that we move on. If we're still interested in this topic we should either PM or start an off topic thread.

I can agree to that.
Last edited by wingedlion on Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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