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Alucard vs Dante

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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:07 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:Honestly I don't remember I just was working on a video for a DMC powerscale recently and remembered it being brought up. But Mundus is still in hell because of the DMC 3 Vergil ending. Also he can still control minions and send them to the human world because we know he sent demons to kill Eva.

Which falls right in line with Trish's statement that Mundus started to rise again 20 years ago.
ka-tet19 wrote:Argosax is stronger than Mundus. The details of his creation are not explored but its said that he arrived in the demon world and then took over. So he wasn't around the entire time Mundus was around. Argosax was then sealed by Sparda who needed the help of Matier and her entire clan of Demon/Human Hybrids to seal him and had to use four magical relics to seal him. Argosax wasn't given many feats (That game is lacking in cutscenes) but in terms of pure scaling hes way stronger than Mundus. The TL;DR version of this argument is Sparda needed an entire clan of half demons to defeat argosax and more complicated sealing magic, but low difs not only Mundus but his entire army and seals them on the spot.

Did you get this from the DMC2 manual?
As for the rest, you kind of got it backwards. The clan needed Sparda, not the other way around. Sparda specifically came to help them.
Devil May Cry 2 instruction manual: wrote:"One recent tale, only a few hundred years old, told of a great swordsman appearing from "the outside" to aid in exorcising the most evil god of all time.

Furthermore, according to Matier's story, Dante going to hell to defeat Argosax was the exact same thing his father did, which means that Sparda himself defeated Argosax. This fits with his enemy file:
Devil May Cry 2, Enemy File — Argosax the Chaos: wrote:"This king once ruled most of the demon world and subdued all the demons, but was defeated by Sparda."

The seal used against Argosax may have been more powerful than the one used against Mundus, but Sparda did not have the aid of the clan of Vie De Marli when fighting Mundus in the first place. Nothing suggests that he wouldn't have used the same type of seal against Mundus if he could have. It makes sense that, when he had the option of forging a greater seal against a demon king, he proceeded to do so. So that doesn't necessarily suggest that Argosax was more powerful than Mundus.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:56 pm

It should be noted that after he was sealed sparda followed after him to defeat him however he clearly wasn't able to kill him since we see him in DMC 2. As for Sparda needing their help I think it's implied somewhere that he did need their assistance when fighting him. I'll have to look into it again but the fact that he even has them help him implies he couldn't do it alone. Especially since as I said he attempted to kill him and was unsuccessful when fighting alone.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:38 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:It should be noted that after he was sealed sparda followed after him to defeat him however he clearly wasn't able to kill him since we see him in DMC 2. As for Sparda needing their help I think it's implied somewhere that he did need their assistance when fighting him. I'll have to look into it again but the fact that he even has them help him implies he couldn't do it alone. Especially since as I said he attempted to kill him and was unsuccessful when fighting alone.

That's not necessarily true. Just because someone is capable of doing something alone doesn't mean that person wouldn't be more effective if they had help with that activity. Especially since, again, him working with the clan would actually produce far better results than if he didn't. Him working with the clan allows him to make a seal better than one he can create by himself.
And just because Argosax wasn't killed doesn't mean Sparda didn't win the battle. You can beat someone up without killing them. The file outright says that Sparda defeated Argosax and that's corroborated by Matier.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:10 pm

wingedlion wrote:
ka-tet19 wrote:It should be noted that after he was sealed sparda followed after him to defeat him however he clearly wasn't able to kill him since we see him in DMC 2. As for Sparda needing their help I think it's implied somewhere that he did need their assistance when fighting him. I'll have to look into it again but the fact that he even has them help him implies he couldn't do it alone. Especially since as I said he attempted to kill him and was unsuccessful when fighting alone.

That's not necessarily true. Just because someone is capable of doing something alone doesn't mean that person wouldn't be more effective if they had help with that activity. Especially since, again, him working with the clan would actually produce far better results than if he didn't. Him working with the clan allows him to make a seal better than one he can create by himself.
And just because Argosax wasn't killed doesn't mean Sparda didn't win the battle. You can beat someone up without killing them. The file outright says that Sparda defeated Argosax and that's corroborated by Matier.

Yeah but if you've already sealed him then what exactly would the point of following him just to beat the piss out of him more and not kill him. lol That actually sounds like a funny scenario when I play it in my head
Matier: Ok Sparda we sealed the demon king Argosax the world is safe again
Sparda: Imma go fuck that nerd up just in case *Jumps in portal.

back on topic though considering that Sparda low diffs not only Mundus but his entire Demon army also. If he felt any need to be more effective then Argosax would be considerably stronger than Mundus.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:58 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:Yeah but if you've already sealed him then what exactly would the point of following him just to beat the piss out of him more and not kill him. lol That actually sounds like a funny scenario when I play it in my head
Matier: Ok Sparda we sealed the demon king Argosax the world is safe again
Sparda: Imma go fuck that nerd up just in case *Jumps in portal.

back on topic though considering that Sparda low diffs not only Mundus but his entire Demon army also. If he felt any need to be more effective then Argosax would be considerably stronger than Mundus.

That's my point though; there's no proof at all that he does feel the need to be more effective. Having new options and being able to use those options doesn't suddenly mean the task your facing now must be more difficult than the ones you faced before. Just because Sparda now actually has allies to back him up doesn't mean that Argosax was somehow more of a threat. That's kind of like saying that if I had a gun to kill someone, and then I later got a rifle and eventually had to kill another person, that the latter person must be more difficult to kill than the former just because I have a rifle. The rifle is more effective but the gun works just fine. Just because one decides to use better tools does not mean that they must be facing tougher situations.
Why would the seal happen before Sparda defeated him?
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:07 pm

Because it's stated that Sparda went back in after him but eventually found his way back into the human world which is what we're lead to believe happens with Dante at the end of DMC 2.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:27 pm

It also seems like a stretch to me that Sparda utilized an entire clan of half demons if he didn't need to. If it was as easy to seal argosax as it was to seal mundus you'd think he would just show up, have the fight and leave. Also I know that evil and power aren't necessarily a 1 to 1 correlation but Argosax is stated to be the most evil God of all time.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:08 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:Because it's stated that Sparda went back in after him but eventually found his way back into the human world which is what we're lead to believe happens with Dante at the end of DMC 2.

I know that. What I asked was why would they prepare the seal before Sparda went in to take them down? Where are you getting that?
ka-tet19 wrote:It also seems like a stretch to me that Sparda utilized an entire clan of half demons if he didn't need to. If it was as easy to seal argosax as it was to seal mundus you'd think he would just show up, have the fight and leave. Also I know that evil and power aren't necessarily a 1 to 1 correlation but Argosax is stated to be the most evil God of all time.

Once again, just because someone uses a rifle to kill someone does not mean that target isn't killable with a pistol. Him using a better option isn't proof that Argosax was tougher because he didn't have that option in the first place. You keep talking as if Sparda was always capable of forging a stronger seal. He only now has the opportunity to do so. The clan didn't exist or weren't present when Sparda defeated Mundus so saying that Argosax must be stronger because they used a stronger seal is not true. He only now has that option because of the clan's help.
And again, Sparda didn't utilize them. They utilized him. They were the ones calling for help. And as I said already, just because Sparda might be capable of taking care of the situation himself doesn't mean he wouldn't do it more effectively with aid, especially when said aid allows him to build a stronger, more permanent seal.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:52 pm

I know that. What I asked was why would they prepare the seal before Sparda went in to take them down? Where are you getting that?


Its stated in the game?

Once again, just because someone uses a rifle to kill someone does not mean that target isn't killable with a pistol. Him using a better option isn't proof that Argosax was tougher because he didn't have that option in the first place. You keep talking as if Sparda was always capable of forging a stronger seal. He only now has the opportunity to do so. The clan didn't exist or weren't present when Sparda defeated Mundus so saying that Argosax must be stronger because they used a stronger seal is not true. He only now has that option because of the clan's help.
And again, Sparda didn't utilize them. They utilized him. They were the ones calling for help. And as I said already, just because Sparda might be capable of taking care of the situation himself doesn't mean he wouldn't do it more effectively with aid, especially when said aid allows him to build a stronger, more permanent seal.

It says something about his perception of the job that needs to be done at the very least. If you have a rifle and decide to go hunting you don't decide to then bring a rocket launcher? What little we have to go on about the battle doesn't imply that Sparda more or less solo'd the fight. He's only described as "aid" and Matier described it as "Fighting with Sparda" it doesn't sound like they didn't exactly do their fair share in the conflict.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:02 pm

And regardless for Argosax to have become king of the demon world he would have had to take control from Mundus.
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