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Alucard vs Dante

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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:07 am

wingedlion wrote:
ka-tet19 wrote:I still see a lot of issues with the argument here but it seems all those points are irrelevant if you're conceding that it is a sealing attack.

True but you can pass through the portal obviously
Both Vergil and Dante do it. He may have even left of his own volition.

What does passing through the portal have to do with anything? The point is that the portal isn't there. Again, that conflict takes place deep in the underworld. Dante is far from the hellgate that he came through.
Immediately after Arkham was blasted, he fell from the sky right back to the human world. I'm not sure how any of that could suggest that he left of his own volition. The only thing that could do that is a BFR shot.

The portal is still open though since we see that the human world side is still open, and that Vergil and Dante both use the portal after Dante's initial trip in mission 18. Also if you look at mission 18 that dimension between between the human and demon world has a much larger and probably more direct portal that Dante never gets to use. This is backed up by the fact that we see Arkham himself go straight from the portal in the human world to the dimension where the battle between him Dante and Vergil happens (epilogue of mission 15 and the prologue of mission 17). We also have no time frame from the Jackpot to Him falling out of the portal.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:23 am

ka-tet19 wrote:
wingedlion wrote:
ka-tet19 wrote:I still see a lot of issues with the argument here but it seems all those points are irrelevant if you're conceding that it is a sealing attack.

True but you can pass through the portal obviously
Both Vergil and Dante do it. He may have even left of his own volition.

What does passing through the portal have to do with anything? The point is that the portal isn't there. Again, that conflict takes place deep in the underworld. Dante is far from the hellgate that he came through.
Immediately after Arkham was blasted, he fell from the sky right back to the human world. I'm not sure how any of that could suggest that he left of his own volition. The only thing that could do that is a BFR shot.

The portal is still open though since we see that the human world side is still open, and that Vergil and Dante both use the portal after Dante's initial trip in mission 18. Also if you look at mission 18 that dimension between between the human and demon world has a much larger and probably more direct portal that Dante never gets to use. This is backed up by the fact that we see Arkham himself go straight from the portal in the human world to the dimension where the battle between him Dante and Vergil happens (epilogue of mission 15 and the prologue of mission 17). We also have no time frame from the Jackpot to Him falling out of the portal.

I'm not saying the portal isn't open, I'm saying it's nowhere where they are. The demon world is a vast place. The area where Dante and Arkham fought is far from the area where Dante entered the demon world.
Dimension between the worlds? What are you talking about? There is no dimension between the worlds.
As for the portal taking Arkham straight to the final stage, nothing at all suggests that he was transported there instantly. Nor is there any mention or display of a more direct portal, so I'm not sure where you got that from. All we see in his second scene is him in the final stage walking towards the sword.
The cutscene with him falling from the demon world happens directly after the one where he is blasted by the shot. Nothing implies or suggest that there was a time skip between those scenes (or indeed for any of the cutscenes exempting those with actual gameplay in between) so unless you have proof that's the case I don't see why that would suddenly be the case here. Not to mention that even if there was a large amount of time between the scene... so what, exactly? The sealing bullet took a long time to bring him back to the human world? Cause regardless, that still shows that the seal works against humans.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:43 pm

In mission 18 you can see a much larger portal to the battle field.
Spoiler
Image

My problem is you're assuming Jackpot seals him to the human world when we see him falling through an already open portal that already exists. What exactly did it do? with Mundus for example we see a portal open and drag him back to hell. This doesn't happen though because he falls through an already opened portal to the demon world. It makes more sense to me that either the force of the attack sent him through the portal or he just left of his own volition.
Edit: You're version of events also begs the question why the Sparda powers and the items required to posses it weren't sealed to the human realm with him?
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:01 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:In mission 18 you can see a much larger portal to the battle field.
Spoiler
Image

My problem is you're assuming Jackpot seals him to the human world when we see him falling through an already open portal that already exists. What exactly did it do? with Mundus for example we see a portal open and drag him back to hell. This doesn't happen though because he falls through an already opened portal to the demon world. It makes more sense to me that either the force of the attack sent him through the portal or he just left of his own volition.
Edit: You're version of events also begs the question why the Sparda powers and the items required to posses it weren't sealed to the human realm with him?

Do you have proof that that portal leads to Forbidden Nirvarna (the name of the battlefield)? Cause this is news to me. Pretty sure we have no knowledge of what that portal is, or if it's even a portal in the first place.
Additionally, even if that does lead to Forbidden Nirvarna:
1. How would Arkham have even gotten there?
2. This goes at odds with your argument, since even if we assume that the bullet blasted him straight through that portal, Arkham would end up at the Unsecured Hellgate(name of the place you start at in mission 18), not the human world. So that still doesn't add up.
It makes more sense to me that either the force of the attack sent him through the portal or he just left of his own volition.

In what way do either of those methods make more sense?
Let's assume for the moment that your first method is correct. That it was the force of the bullet that sent him through the portal. As I mentioned above, Arkham could not end up on earth through the portal you mentioned. he would end up at the unsecured Hellgate(the first place Dante enters in Hell). The only way that Arkham could have ended up on earth through that method is if we assumed that the bullet was a homing missile that hit Arkham's body and plowed him through the portal and guided his body straight through the Hellgate. Not only is there literally no proof of this, and not only do we not see this at all, but Dante's bullets, magic or otherwise, have never acted that way before.
On the other hand, let's assume that your other answer is correct. That Arkham left of his own volition.
Let's ignore the fact Arkham's body is actually gone after he get's blasted.
Let's ignore the fact that, even if his body was there, this would require him to sneak past the notice of Dante and Vergil, who just blasted him in the face and are facing the direction where he previously was. Not to mention the other awareness feats they have.
You're telling me that Arkham, while wounded (cause remember, shot and stabbed) made his way through the many lands that separated Forbidden Nirvana from the Unsecured Hellgate, and willingly threw himself into the portal and bodyslammed himself on top of the tower?
How, in any way, does that make more sense than Dante BFRing him back to the human dimension? Which is an ability we know he can do?
Arkham is many things. Suicidal he isn't.
My problem here is that your claims require several assumptions that are simply not backed up by anything in the series, whether by visuals, files, or any form of lore. As well as the fact that it ignores facts we already know, such as the fact that Arkham's body is simply gone after he's shot, or that Arkham isn't suicidal, or that he shouldn't be capable of sneaking past the twins, especially in that situation.
Meanwhile, I'm merely saying that Dante's magical shot, the same magical shot that you yourself argue looks exactly the same as the one used against Mundus, merely did the same thing to Arkham-BFR him to a different dimension. We know this, because when Arkham get's hit by the shot, his human form vanishes from the demon world, and ends up back in the human world.
So on one hand, Dante uses an ability we already know he's capable of to transport Arkham into another dimension.
On the other hand, either Dante's magic bullets are insanely sentient, homing missiles that can piledrive people through an entire landscape. Or Arkham is the sneakiest ninja ever with a death wish.
Edit: You're version of events also begs the question why the Sparda powers and the items required to posses it weren't sealed to the human realm with him?

Why would they be sealed in the human realm?
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:01 pm

Right here is my problem in a nutshell. In your interpretation of events what exactly does Jackpot do to Arkham's body? An example of what I mean is when we talk about Mundus we can say "A portal opens and BFR's Mundus by transporting him to a different dimension." When we see Arkham enter the human world he comes through an already opened portal so that was not a result of Jackpot . We also see no portal open that might have transported him. It also doesn't make sense that Spardas power that was part of him didn't get also get BFR'd to the Human realm. On the other hand we know that there are portals between Forbidden Nirvana and Unsecured Hellgate near the battlefield and all around the Forbidden Nirvana. There are also plenty of ways back to the human world from the Unsecured Hellgate so I don't understand why getting blasted to point A then falling to point B then C wouldn't be conceivable. So I'm genuinely curious in your interpretation what happens when Dante's bullet makes contact with Arkham?
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:36 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:Right here is my problem in a nutshell. In your interpretation of events what exactly does Jackpot do to Arkham's body? An example of what I mean is when we talk about Mundus we can say "A portal opens and BFR's Mundus by transporting him to a different dimension." When we see Arkham enter the human world he comes through an already opened portal so that was not a result of Jackpot . We also see no portal open that might have transported him. It also doesn't make sense that Spardas power that was part of him didn't get also get BFR'd to the Human realm.

What does it do to Arkham's body? It BFRs it. We see it in the scene; his mutated body literally fades away.
Perhaps it looks different with Mundus because Dante's power has grown considerably since then. That wouldn't be completely out there; we see Dante's devil trigger change as he grows older. In either case, however, the result is the same; the target is warped from the dimension they were in.
Again, Sparda's power is part of the sword. It never left it. You can tap into the power of the sword as long as you wield it, but's it not going to be a part of you once it's gone. The bullet sent Arkham away; not the sword. There is no reason that he would still have this power.
On the other hand we know that there are portals between Forbidden Nirvana and Unsecured Hellgate near the battlefield and all around the Forbidden Nirvana. There are also plenty of ways back to the human world from the Unsecured Hellgate so I don't understand why getting blasted to point A then falling to point B then C wouldn't be conceivable. So I'm genuinely curious in your interpretation what happens when Dante's bullet makes contact with Arkham?

What are you talking about? There is no portal in Forbidden Nirvana.
Regarding the Unsecured Hellgate, we see no other portal there beside the one Dante comes from and the one that leads him to the Demonic chesspieces. Where are you getting all of these others? If you're talking about the hole in the sky, I asked for proof that that was a portal to Forbidden Nirvana. You have yet to give any.
Furthermore, Arkham falling after getting blasted through the portal (assuming that is a portal, and assuming a portal existed in Forbidden Nirvana; the former is unproven and the latter is simply false) would leave him stuck in hell. The portal to earth isn't directly below the portal to Nirvana, so best case scenario Arkham would end up falling on a platform. Worse case scenario he ends up falling forever.
Literally the only way for Arkham to get blasted through the portal to earth is if Dante's bullets were sentient and guided the target to their destination, which they have never done before.
Also, clarify this for me. Earlier on, you argued that the move that he used against Arkham was in fact the same ability that was used against Mundus. Now, after I conceded that point and agreed with you that it is the same ability, you argue that the two bullets do, in fact, do two different things.
So which is it? Are they the same or are they different?
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:20 pm

What does it do to Arkham's body? It BFRs it. We see it in the scene; his mutated body literally fades away.

I think part of the problem in this discussion is I'm not communicating my questions to you well enough. By what manner does he BFR his body. My example with Mundus was to show that in that example Dante creates a portal that sucks him in. In this example the only portal we visually see Arkham use is one that was not a result of Dante's attack.
Perhaps it looks different with Mundus because Dante's power has grown considerably since then. That wouldn't be completely out there; we see Dante's devil trigger change as he grows older.


Possible.

Again, Sparda's power is part of the sword. It never left it. You can tap into the power of the sword as long as you wield it, but's it not going to be a part of you once it's gone. The bullet sent Arkham away; not the sword. There is no reason that he would still have this power.


I know the power is not his that's why I argued that the attack simply sealed the power of the sword. My point is that the sword was literally part of Arkhams transformation and inside of him so he couldn't have exactly dropped it. If the attack sealed Arkham by sending him to the human world it would make more sense if the sword went with him since it was inside of his body at the time.

What are you talking about? There is no portal in Forbidden Nirvana.


There are many. We see one pop up away from the battle field at the room of the fallen ones in the beginning of the mission where you fight Arkham. Also we know that Dante, Arkham, and Vergil all have to use one to arrive. Most importantly we know Dante had to use one on the way back after his fight with Vergil.

Regarding the Unsecured Hellgate, we see no other portal there beside the one Dante comes from and the one that leads him to the Demonic chesspieces. Where are you getting all of these others? If you're talking about the hole in the sky, I asked for proof that that was a portal to Forbidden Nirvana. You have yet to give any.
Furthermore, Arkham falling after getting blasted through the portal (assuming that is a portal, and assuming a portal existed in Forbidden Nirvana; the former is unproven and the latter is simply false) would leave him stuck in hell. The portal to earth isn't directly below the portal to Nirvana, so best case scenario Arkham would end up falling on a platform. Worse case scenario he ends up falling forever.

Ok so i was looking for images on the DMC wiki and found some images of the portal in question.
first lets look at the road to despair
Spoiler
Image


This is the door labeled "End of the line" that Dante uses to enter into the Nirvanas
Spoiler
Image

Now lets look at where Dante and Vergils final battle takes place.
Spoiler
Image

All have the same portal (Which I'm claiming is a portal because its in a bunch of connecting places in different worlds and quite frankly looks like a portal.)
The wiki has all these places listed as transit locations and claims that the final battle is part of the Unsacred hell gates. Which it is aesthetically similar too so that's entirely possible. Further more in the game when walking in the unsacred hell gate you can actually use it to go back to the Temen-ni-Gru. These places are all connected so you don't have to assume Arkham is sealed to have a reason he ends up falling through the portal in the human world. He could have just gotten blasted then ending up in one of the transit portals.

Literally the only way for Arkham to get blasted through the portal to earth is if Dante's bullets were sentient and guided the target to their destination, which they have never done before.
Also, clarify this for me. Earlier on, you argued that the move that he used against Arkham was in fact the same ability that was used against Mundus. Now, after I conceded that point and agreed with you that it is the same ability, you argue that the two bullets do, in fact, do two different things.
So which is it? Are they the same or are they different?

No it just requires the force of the bullets to blast him somewhere that lands near a portal.
I think it's the same attack but its not sealing the same thing. Let me put it this way if we were observers in a dimension other than were Dante was doing battle and we waited to see a sealed opponent be transported there we would expect to see a portal open and the person fall in. That's not what we see. We also know that in DMC sealing powers can be used to seal things to objects (like all the demons Sparda sealed to Temen-ni-Gru, or his own power that he sealed into his sword.) I'm saying situation B makes more sense to me, that the target was different but it was in fact the same attack. Hope that clears up my position.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:46 pm

All of which is irrelevant because Alucard isn't human so should be able to be sealed regardless.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:42 am

By what manner does he BFR his body.

Teleportation. I say this because, again, we see his body fade away. There's no image or visual of his body getting pushed out the entrance to Nirvana like he just got hit by a Kamehameha. Instead, we just see his body gradually disappearing the moment he gets hit by the bullet.
I know the power is not his that's why I argued that the attack simply sealed the power of the sword. My point is that the sword was literally part of Arkhams transformation and inside of him so he couldn't have exactly dropped it. If the attack sealed Arkham by sending him to the human world it would make more sense if the sword went with him since it was inside of his body at the time.

I see what you're saying, and you even have a point. However, the seal is also already known for being capable of sealing the target's power. We know this because that's exactly what happened to Mundus. Mundus himself wasn't just sealed; his powers were sealed away as well. So Force Edge's power being sealed doesn't mean that Arkham wasn't BFR'd. They're not mutually exclusive.
There are many. We see one pop up away from the battle field at the room of the fallen ones in the beginning of the mission where you fight Arkham. Also we know that Dante, Arkham, and Vergil all have to use one to arrive. Most importantly we know Dante had to use one on the way back after his fight with Vergil.

I thought you were talking about a portal that led directly to the human world. If you're talking about those little portals that the twins enter through, that still requires the bullet to be extremely homing. Those portals are not in a straight line; the bullet will still have to twist and turn while guiding the body before it reaches the Hellgate.
No it just requires the force of the bullets to blast him somewhere that lands near a portal.

And then what? Blasting him near the portal does not account for him actually falling into it. He would still end up stuck in that part of hell. Much like with the smaller portals mentioned before, these bigger ones (if they are portals) aren't lined up in a straight path to the Hellgate. Regardless of the force, there's no way for it to blast him to earth unless it turns and guides his body there.
I think it's the same attack but its not sealing the same thing. Let me put it this way if we were observers in a dimension other than were Dante was doing battle and we waited to see a sealed opponent be transported there we would expect to see a portal open and the person fall in. That's not what we see. We also know that in DMC sealing powers can be used to seal things to objects (like all the demons Sparda sealed to Temen-ni-Gru, or his own power that he sealed into his sword.) I'm saying situation B makes more sense to me, that the target was different but it was in fact the same attack. Hope that clears up my position.

I believe I see what you're saying, but the thing is situation A and B are not mutually exclusive. Again, as I mentioned above, the seal is perfectly capable of sealing both the target and its powers. Just because Arkham's powers were sealed doesn't mean the seal didn't affect him as well. And while he doesn't visibly get sucked into a portal, the fact still remains that the bullet still teleported him, which is still a form of spatial transference.
All of which is irrelevant because Alucard isn't human so should be able to be sealed regardless.

Alucard may not be human, but he's not noted to be a demon either. And (I admittedly forgot to address this) the logic you used beforehand suggesting that vampires should be demons in DMC because of Nevan kind of falls short because Nevan is never confirmed to be a vampire. In fact, if anything Nevan is more in line with a succubus. So the seal's applicability does, in fact, matter here.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:37 pm

Teleportation. I say this because, again, we see his body fade away. There's no image or visual of his body getting pushed out the entrance to Nirvana like he just got hit by a Kamehameha. Instead, we just see his body gradually disappearing the moment he gets hit by the bullet.

If we assume that the power is also sealed into the sword (which if I'm understanding you we both now believe) couldn't it be possible that Arkham was gone before the power completely dissipated.

I see what you're saying, and you even have a point. However, the seal is also already known for being capable of sealing the target's power. We know this because that's exactly what happened to Mundus. Mundus himself wasn't just sealed; his powers were sealed away as well. So Force Edge's power being sealed doesn't mean that Arkham wasn't BFR'd. They're not mutually exclusive.

Can you expand on this a little more? Its not like Mundus had power that was separate from himself?

I thought you were talking about a portal that led directly to the human world. If you're talking about those little portals that the twins enter through, that still requires the bullet to be extremely homing. Those portals are not in a straight line; the bullet will still have to twist and turn while guiding the body before it reaches the Hellgate.


The room that dante and vergil have their final battle in can be used as an entrance to the human world (in game) and Arkham was standing right over it. I don't think him getting smacked into that world and then ending up in the human world is far fetched?

And then what? Blasting him near the portal does not account for him actually falling into it. He would still end up stuck in that part of hell. Much like with the smaller portals mentioned before, these bigger ones (if they are portals) aren't lined up in a straight path to the Hellgate. Regardless of the force, there's no way for it to blast him to earth unless it turns and guides his body there.


As we see with the portal to the human world, some of the portals have that weird tractor beam effect. This isn't the only was he could end up in a portal but its a possibility.

I believe I see what you're saying, but the thing is situation A and B are not mutually exclusive. Again, as I mentioned above, the seal is perfectly capable of sealing both the target and its powers. Just because Arkham's powers were sealed doesn't mean the seal didn't affect him as well. And while he doesn't visibly get sucked into a portal, the fact still remains that the bullet still teleported him, which is still a form of spatial transference.


Maybe the attack is doing two things at once but I'd have to point out that means your interpretation is adding an extra assumption. The attack would have to be doing both things separately at the same time which is something I don't think we've seen the series do before.

Alucard may not be human, but he's not noted to be a demon either. And (I admittedly forgot to address this) the logic you used beforehand suggesting that vampires should be demons in DMC because of Nevan kind of falls short because Nevan is never confirmed to be a vampire. In fact, if anything Nevan is more in line with a succubus. So the seal's applicability does, in fact, matter here.

The official strategy guide confirms Nevan is a vampire. In the weapons section it states "Nevan is the vampire demon goddess of the underworld....." can post scans if needed.
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