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Alucard vs Dante

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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:54 pm

wingedlion wrote:
Uhhh it's the same ability with the same name-

It's literally not. Do tell how blasting someone back to their original form is the same as sending them to another dimension.


Occam's razor. If it looks the same and has the same name- it's the same ability. And that makes it more than fair to point out it didn't do the same thing in both cases.
And simple- blast them both with enough power that the former cannot continue using his form (defeated) and the latter can no longer continue escaping the Seal that held them (defeated).
Both cases allow for "moar firepower" to be the plausible reason it happened.

I asked others how Dante's sealing ability worked and got various answers of, "His what? Dante doesn't have one." so frankly I'm going to need more proof than the portal showing up when Dante hits Mundus to mean Dante can actually do that. The only times he's ever even sent someone to other dimensions were when there were active portals already opened up between the worlds- Mundus had his own portal he was breaking out through, Arkham had already opened his portal to the demonic world as well thanks to Vergil.

Even if he CAN BFR- why should we in any way accept Dante can do this at any time instead of the same circumstances that are repeated each time he does it?


wingedlion wrote:
Mundus was in the process of escaping, whether he was entirely "free" or not is unknown.

He wasn't in the process of anything- he was out. The place that he and Dante were in was no longer in the underworld.


And yet, you will later point out Mundus was already sealed away, yet this seal can apparently no longer hold sway over him because... reasons? He couldn't break free before could he? No? Then why should he be able to be completely free now?


wingedlion wrote:
As evidenced by? Mundus was using his own power to escape- why is shooting him with a more powerful bullet and weakening him to the point where he falls back into the prison he was trying to escape from have to be wrong while him suddenly without warning gaining the ability to seal beings away is the more likely option?

What are you talking about? The portal only opened the moment the bullet hit him. There was nothing to fall into until he got hit by Jackpot.
https://youtu.be/UUCBTVuWAmE?t=819
Look at the video again. He wasn't in between dimensions- he got out. He was on the part of Mallet Island that was in the physical world. Dante had already got out of hell in the process of trying to escape Mallet island collapsing.
Further, Dante's sealing ability isn't fully unprecedented. His father literally did the same thing when he defeated Mundus in the past.


If Mundus was sealed in the past, and the seal persists, then it's quite logical to assume the same seal still has an effect on him since never again has Dante demonstrated the ability to conjure up a portal and shoot an enemy through it; that claim is actually unsupported outside of the disputed feat.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:49 pm

Occam's razor. If it looks the same and has the same name- it's the same ability.

Occam's razor is the idea that the answer with the fewest assumptions is the correct one. I have not stated any assumption at all.
I said that the energy shot that Dante used against Arkham is not the same move that he used against Mundus-that's a fact, not an assumption. I've explained and shown why that's the case. I've described the differences between the two shots. Meanwhile, all you've been claiming so far is that it's the same move because Dante uses his signature catchphrase when using the moves-despite the fact that both moves do two different things. That right there is not only an assumption- it's a wrong one. Because if it was the same ability, then it would do the same thing, not two completely different things.
continue escaping the Seal that held them (defeated).

Again. Look at the video. He's not escaping the seal- he's already escaped the seal. He's there. He's on earth. I'm not sure why you keep talking like he was coming out of hell that entire fight- he's already out.
I asked others how Dante's sealing ability worked and got various answers of, "His what? Dante doesn't have one." so frankly I'm going to need more proof than the portal showing up when Dante hits Mundus to mean Dante can actually do that.

So just to be clear. I bring up that Dante can seal people in other dimensions. I then show Dante blasting Mundus with a magic bullet, which simultaneously opens a portal that sucks him back to hell. Then you tell me that despite doing this, I haven't proven my point because apparently other people claimed that Dante can't seal enemies/haven't heard of him sealing enemies as if the claims of other people are somehow evidence? As if the claims of other people somehow disprove what happened in the game?
That is literally appealing to popularity. You're saying that I'm wrong because multiple people apparently said so, despite proof that it actually happened. Does that make sense to you?
The only times he's ever even sent someone to other dimensions were when there were active portals already opened up between the worlds- Mundus had his own portal he was breaking out through, Arkham had already opened his portal to the demonic world as well thanks to Vergil.

Mundus's portal was already gone. Again, did you watch the video? He only used it to get there- it's gone for the rest of the battle. The only other portal that appears is the one that appeared when Dante shot Mundus. It's an entirely new portal.
I'm not sure why you brought up the portal with Arkham as Dante and Vergil didn't send anyone to a different dimension there.
And yet, you will later point out Mundus was already sealed away, yet this seal can apparently no longer hold sway over him because... reasons? He couldn't break free before could he? No? Then why should he be able to be completely free now?

This was explained at the beginning of the game. Admittedly I thought you have played or watched it already but that may have been wrong on my part. Mundus was trying to open a gate between the human and demon world so that he could arrive on earth. This was something that he had already been working on- that's why Dante went there to stop him. And as shown in the end, he succeeded. It didn't just stop working all of a sudden- he was actively trying to break out of it. He just didn't do it instantly.
If Mundus was sealed in the past, and the seal persists, then it's quite logical to assume the same seal still has an effect on him since never again has Dante demonstrated the ability to conjure up a portal and shoot an enemy through it; that claim is actually unsupported outside of the disputed feat.

The argument that Dante never shows the feat again is irrelevant as there is never a reason for Dante to use the seal again. There is no enemy that Dante faces besides Mundus that requires the seal.

EDIT:
Just remembered this:
Devil May Cry 4, Character — Dante: "Legendary Devil Hunter who sealed away the Demon Emperor Mundus. Son of Sparda, the demon revered by the Order of the Sword, Dante stands alone between demons and humanity. His mastery of close-quarter and ranged combat has led some to believe he has surpassed his father."

And this:
https://youtu.be/jTTIDXVwbOE?t=27
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby guardianangel1911 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:31 am

so sorry about the missed match this week guys was out of town and didn't have time to put a match together
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby Alpha or Omega » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:54 am

Does the sealing only apply on demons, and does Alucard count as one?
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:18 pm

Alpha or Omega wrote:Does the sealing only apply on demons, and does Alucard count as one?

I don't recall anything about the seal only applying to demons.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:02 pm

wingedlion wrote:
Alpha or Omega wrote:Does the sealing only apply on demons, and does Alucard count as one?

I don't recall anything about the seal only applying to demons.

This can probably be assumed since the jackpot used on arkham only sealed his demonic energy and not his human form. However it should be noted that there is no clear difference between the powers of vampires and the powers of demons in the DMC verse. Nevan was a vampire and her soul had no difficulty be transformed into a devil arm. My assumption would be that magic a = magic b for most evil supernatural entities given how variegated the cast of DMC demons are. Especially in the case of vampires since we have an example of Dante treating a vampire in DMC more or less the same as all the other demons. Actually Sparda specifically sealed Nevan in the Temen-ni-guru. So Alucard should be able to be sealed
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:09 pm

Mostly unrelated note if Dante could kill Alucard without sealing I would love to see what kind of devil arm Dante would turn him into.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:53 am

ka-tet19 wrote:This can probably be assumed since the jackpot used on arkham only sealed his demonic energy and not his human form.

Once again, nothing actually points to that move being a seal. That was never mentioned nor shown to be the case, unlike the one used against Mundus. Literally the only thing these two moves have in common is that they are both covered in demonic energy.
ka-tet19 wrote:Mostly unrelated note if Dante could kill Alucard without sealing I would love to see what kind of devil arm Dante would turn him into.

Probably something with a lot of eyes.
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby ka-tet19 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:05 pm

wingedlion wrote:
ka-tet19 wrote:This can probably be assumed since the jackpot used on arkham only sealed his demonic energy and not his human form.

Once again, nothing actually points to that move being a seal. That was never mentioned nor shown to be the case, unlike the one used against Mundus. Literally the only thing these two moves have in common is that they are both covered in demonic energy.
ka-tet19 wrote:Mostly unrelated note if Dante could kill Alucard without sealing I would love to see what kind of devil arm Dante would turn him into.

Probably something with a lot of eyes.

And that they have the same name and it references that Dante has used the term "Jackpot" in the past for the same attack. And that it seals spardas power back into the amulets. There definitely seems to be enough evidence to show that it's the same move. I mean you have an attack with the same name looking exactly the same and doing the same thing. What kind of evidence would you ask for??
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Re: Alucard vs Dante

Postby wingedlion » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:36 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:And that they have the same name and it references that Dante has used the term "Jackpot" in the past for the same attack. And that it seals spardas power back into the amulets. There definitely seems to be enough evidence to show that it's the same move. I mean you have an attack with the same name looking exactly the same and doing the same thing. What kind of evidence would you ask for??

I've gone over this already, it's literally a catchphrase; it was something Dante and Vergil used to say when they were children. At no point is that ever mentioned to be the actual name of the attack; It's just something he likes to say sometimes when finishing someone off. Hell, in the finale of the animated series, when Sid runs to try and kill Dante, Dante uses that exact phrase before he blows his brains out. No sealing showed or mentioned whatsoever; just death. Nero also uses this phrase when he uses devil buster on Sanctus; does that mean he sealed him too?
It's no different from the Thing saying "it's clobbering time" or the Hulk saying "Hulk smash". The fact of the matter is that there is no actual statement or any form of evidence suggesting that "Jackpot" isn't just what Dante occasionally says when he's finishing someone off.
it seals spardas power back into the amulets.

Can you cite this? Cause from my recollection that was never mentioned to be the case.
I mean you have an attack with the same name looking exactly the same and doing the same thing.

No, once again, we don't. The charged shot used on Arkham does not open a portal that BFRs him. They are factually two different things.
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