FACTPILE IS BACK!!!
CLICK HERE TO SEE FOR YOURSELF
Take a Tour of the Admin's Mancave

The Hunt for Darth Vader

This is where you will debate until the main site comes back online.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Authors

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:56 pm

@Friendly
"Health" only makes sense for those who lack some kind of protection like body armor. In GoldenEye, body armor differed from health. I believe the same is in GTA. Samus' energy shield is canon. Metroid Prime notes that energy tanks increase Samus' energy shield. Metroid: Other M shows that energy tanks exist outside of game play, since in the opening cut-scene, Samus' energy tanks can be seen being restored.

If water was in a Styrofoam cup, and if if was sealed off from the outside water, and if the outside water was heated while the inside was cool, the cup would keep the inside cool because it's an insulator. Besides, in morph ball mode, Samus would be energy. No organs, no choking. Although, a power bomb would be unpleasant.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:06 pm

The Chozo ghosts have a bioelectric field, theres something there to stop, the force on the other hand? I have seen no support that the force itself has to travel. The only suggestion I saw in the other thread concerning Vader was that some force attacks, just like many TK attacks in general have the ability to project physical force as a wave. This wave will probably be blocked by a shield, but not if the fore itself is projected inside or behind the shield, this is how it seems force choke works, regardless of space/material between the target.

Otherwise the ship shields, hull and god knows what else would be between vader and admiral whos name I cannot recall.

in morph ball mode, Samus would be energy. No organs, no choking


Not heard this before, this true? Does she become energy? How does that work?
Image
User avatar
Kitten Lord
Organ Grinder
 
Posts: 2086
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:11 pm

Mea quidem sententia wrote:@Friendly
"Health" only makes sense for those who lack some kind of protection like body armor.


Or it could be vitality or toughness, as even regular humans can keep going despite being shot. There's a well-cited instance of a man taking a railroad spike through the head and living through it.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:Besides, in morph ball mode, Samus would be energy. No organs, no choking. Although, a power bomb would be unpleasant.


Not disagreeing with that particular approach nor do I think Vader could successfully choke her to begin with as she's a fair bit more durable than a normal human and would just blast him with her cannon in that situation.
However, I do find it odd that gameplay for Samus is so often taken as literal with so little complaint while fantasy-based fictions have to jump through a million hoops to be considered valid.
How is canonically having a shield/armor any different from canonically being superhuman?


Kitten Lord wrote:Not heard this before, this true? Does she become energy? How does that work?


The magic of science fiction
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Morph_Ball
Although I don't technically believe it's impossible for a 6'3" 200 pound woman to condense herself into a small ball-shape (being something of a contortionist myself I can see it being doable) the fact that we see energy inside the sphere and she also won't take fall-damage in said sphere does back up the idea that she's no longer 'there' so to speak.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4413
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:55 pm

That said, a list of Composite Shepard's weapons, or at least a list of how to get to them all:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

Some notable ones include-

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/M-622_Avalanche
Freezes stuff solid

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/M-490_Blackstorm
Black hole gun

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/M-920_Cain
Nuke launcher that moves at 5km/s
Just getting hit by the projectile would be 312,500 J, more than enough to mess up a normal body; and that's without the explosion.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/M-560_Hydra
Triple homing-missile-launcer

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Reaper_Blackstar
Multiple black hole guns

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Collec ... ticle_Beam
Also 'frikkin laser beams'

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Arc_Projector
I believe Vader is susceptible to lightning?
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4413
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:25 pm

All right, so I just tested out phase drift and it takes 1 frame for a pit block to break. It takes 35 frames for it to even show signs of breaking with phase drift active.

35 frames - 1 frame = 34 frames
34 frames / 1 frame = 34
34 * 100 = 3,400%

That is by how much time slows down. This could come in handy with regard to how fast Samus would be running and the speed of her beams and missiles. Interestingly, this image shows the afterimages that are present when Samus uses the speed booster. Furthermore, since the speed booster isn't even present in Metroid: Samus Returns, it is likely that her normal speed appears supersonic to those around her.

Kitten Lord wrote:Not heard this before, this true? Does she become energy? How does that work?


What we see inside the morph ball isn't even human. In this speedrun, we get to see a better image of what's behind the morph ball. Without the armor covering it, we see some swirling sphere of energy. Since the first Metroid Prime game, Yoshio Sakamoto has continued with this in Metroid: Other M and Metroid: Samus Returns.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Or vitality, as even regular humans can keep going despite being shot. There's a well-cited instance of a man taking a railroad spike through the head and living through it. I'm just saying- superhuman characters in RPGs have to prove they can tank stuff that damages their health-system in-game, regardless of how canon their superhuman stats may be. Samus gets a pass because she has an energy shield instead of being naturally durable?


You could call it vitality if you want. I've called it "vigor" in the past. Surviving something isn't the same thing as withstanding, i.e., "tanking". I'm not saying human characters in RPGs lack superhuman abilities. I'm just pointing out that when it comes to health from video games, something more than a health bar is necessary to prove that a character can withstand something that would otherwise injure or kill a human. Armor has proven throughout history to protect the wearer. There have been ways around it, such as joints or areas that weren't as durable. I'm not saying the Force couldn't pass through Samus' armor.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Not disagreeing with that particular approach nor do I think Vader could successfully choke her to begin with as she's a fair bit more durable than a normal human and would just blast him with her cannon in that situation.
However, I do find it odd that gameplay for Samus is so often taken as literal with so little complaint while fantasy-based fictions have to jump through a million hoops to be considered valid.
How is canonically having a shield/armor any different from canonically being superhuman?


Well, Samus is technically superhuman without the armor, but I don't think she'd be able to take on Darth Vader and not be harmed if he decided to use the Force. Her powered armor is obviously different from knight's armor, and I wouldn't think someone in knight's armor like Link in Breath of the Wild would be able to just take on Darth Vader that way as well. AoO's point about Samus is that there are things in the Metroid series that normally pass through enemies, but they don't get through Samus' armor. Her energy shield takes it instead. Even when fighting Draygon, using the grapple beam to have electricity pass from a conduit and around her, onto Draygon doesn't cause Samus to suffer cardiac arrest.

I think the problem is not necessarily with RPGs, just JRPGs. Disgaea is an example of exaggerating an attack. A meteor shows up, has no issue come toward Earth at the rate it's going. Then it slows down for Laharl to jump onto as he laughs maniacally. Then everything, including buildings, don't show any signs of ruin. How is one exactly supposed to determine a character's defense based on something as exaggerated as that? I'm not opposed to suspension of disbelief, since that's required for any fiction, even if you try to make it as realistic as possible.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:34 pm

Mea quidem sententia wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Not disagreeing with that particular approach nor do I think Vader could successfully choke her to begin with as she's a fair bit more durable than a normal human and would just blast him with her cannon in that situation.
However, I do find it odd that gameplay for Samus is so often taken as literal with so little complaint while fantasy-based fictions have to jump through a million hoops to be considered valid.
How is canonically having a shield/armor any different from canonically being superhuman?


Well, Samus is technically superhuman without the armor, but I don't think she'd be able to take on Darth Vader and not be harmed if he decided to use the Force. Her powered armor is obviously different from knight's armor, and I wouldn't think someone in knight's armor like Link in Breath of the Wild would be able to just take on Darth Vader that way as well. AoO's point about Samus is that there are things in the Metroid series that normally pass through enemies, but they don't get through Samus' armor. Her energy shield takes it instead. Even when fighting Draygon, using the grapple beam to have electricity pass from a conduit and around her, onto Draygon doesn't cause Samus to suffer cardiac arrest.


I meant specifically the result would be Samus coming out on top- so choking as an attack would ultimately be unsuccessful in the end result because Samus can respond to the non-lethal (to her) attack with lethal force (pun not intended). In a similar vein I would suggest Shepard or any of the other fighters plucking up a Stormtrooper weapon would be unsuccessful against Vader as we know he can absorb and deflect those without difficulty.
Her having an easy counter and escape method is what makes it unsuccessful- her durability is just a part of that. Vader would presumably use the normal Force-Choke amount of effort and this would not choke Samus to the degree it would a normal human being.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:I think the problem is not necessarily with RPGs, just JRPGs. Disgaea is an example of exaggerating an attack. A meteor shows up, has no issue come toward Earth at the rate it's going. Then it slows down for Laharl to jump onto as he laughs maniacally. Then everything, including buildings, don't show any signs of ruin. How is one exactly supposed to determine a character's defense based on something as exaggerated as that? I'm not opposed to suspension of disbelief, since that's required for any fiction, even if you try to make it as realistic as possible.


Disgaea's a bit of an extreme even for JRPGs. It's a game that almost prides itself on how little sense it makes and visibly enjoys upping the ante every game.
"Oh, we were worried about the moon falling last game? Now let's start off this game with characters pointing out they're blowing up hundreds of stars."
And, of course, the game right after that has the fate of the universe at stake.

I could just as easily cite Elder Scrolls or Fallout- both aren't JRPGs and have similar issues.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4413
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:39 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:I meant specifically the result would be Samus coming out on top- so choking as an attack would ultimately be unsuccessful in the end result because Samus can respond to the non-lethal (to her) attack with lethal force (pun not intended). In a similar vein I would suggest Shepard or any of the other fighters plucking up a Stormtrooper weapon would be unsuccessful against Vader as we know he can absorb and deflect those without difficulty.
Her having an easy counter and escape method is what makes it unsuccessful- her durability is just a part of that. Vader would presumably use the normal Force-Choke amount of effort and this would not choke Samus to the degree it would a normal human being.


I was under the impression that Shepard was the likely winner.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Disgaea's a bit of an extreme even for JRPGs. It's a game that almost prides itself on how little sense it makes and visibly enjoys upping the ante every game.
"Oh, we were worried about the moon falling last game? Now let's start off this game with characters pointing out they're blowing up hundreds of stars."
And, of course, the game right after that has the fate of the universe at stake.

I could just as easily cite Elder Scrolls or Fallout- both aren't JRPGs and have similar issues.


You could. I wouldn't know what issues they have. I've only played Skyrim.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Alpha or Omega » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:40 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:Still not 100% sure choke even travels considering every time Vader has used it the effects have been immediate regardless of distance. Barrier shenanigans aside- the claim of it traveling isn't very supported.
Although, since you did mention it, what if Samus/Vader/anyone opened a communications channel to try and talk? Would this open a 'breach' in the hypothetical suit to use the Force through?

I'm not sure about an opened communication channel, but I'm not sure if they can even communicate. Even, then, it would be turned off.

Friendlysociopath wrote:
He's got millions of people to tell him which screen to look at.

And he's got long distances to cover, by the time he reaches one of the million guys who told him, the target would be long gone.

Kitten Lord wrote:The Chozo ghosts have a bioelectric field, theres something there to stop, the force on the other hand? I have seen no support that the force itself has to travel. The only suggestion I saw in the other thread concerning Vader was that some force attacks, just like many TK attacks in general have the ability to project physical force as a wave. This wave will probably be blocked by a shield, but not if the fore itself is projected inside or behind the shield, this is how it seems force choke works, regardless of space/material between the target.

On the other hand, the Chozo ghosts are stated to be ethereal and shown to bypass everything. It's not just the Chozo ghost as the Covern exists as well.
The force is a type of energy field anyway in both continuities.

The shields in Star Wars probably don't have anything that blocks the force or block things that bypass shields. Nevermind that in Star Wars, there exists different kinds of shields.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Disgaea's a bit of an extreme even for JRPGs. It's a game that almost prides itself on how little sense it makes and visibly enjoys upping the ante every game.
"Oh, we were worried about the moon falling last game? Now let's start off this game with characters pointing out they're blowing up hundreds of stars."
And, of course, the game right after that has the fate of the universe at stake.

I could just as easily cite Elder Scrolls or Fallout- both aren't JRPGs and have similar issues.

I'm pretty sure I already mentioned that Samus without the varia suit has a unique sprite if she gets hit by the fully stacked beam unlike with the varia suit, and that Samus gets pushed by the Chozo ghost.
Or, are you talking about something else?

Mea quidem sententia wrote:
I was under the impression that Shepard was the likely winner.

I was under the impression that Zeratul would most likely win since he can teleport and avoid detection.

Mea quidem sententia wrote:You could. I wouldn't know what issues they have. I've only played Skyrim.

Skyrim and Fallout use the same engine. An engine which is known to both communities to be "faulty, but we love that kind of faulty."
Image
Happy New Years
User avatar
Alpha or Omega
Zombie Eater
 
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:33 am
Location: On the Move

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:24 pm

Mea quidem sententia wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:I meant specifically the result would be Samus coming out on top- so choking as an attack would ultimately be unsuccessful in the end result because Samus can respond to the non-lethal (to her) attack with lethal force (pun not intended). In a similar vein I would suggest Shepard or any of the other fighters plucking up a Stormtrooper weapon would be unsuccessful against Vader as we know he can absorb and deflect those without difficulty.
Her having an easy counter and escape method is what makes it unsuccessful- her durability is just a part of that. Vader would presumably use the normal Force-Choke amount of effort and this would not choke Samus to the degree it would a normal human being.


I was under the impression that Shepard was the likely winner.


I meant specifically in the scenario of, "Vader tries choking Samus". Not the overall battle- that's why I only mentioned Vader and Samus.
Theoretically, whoever knows to sit and wait for Vader to fight someone else has the BEST chance to win as they get free shots at both.


Alpha or Omega wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Still not 100% sure choke even travels considering every time Vader has used it the effects have been immediate regardless of distance. Barrier shenanigans aside- the claim of it traveling isn't very supported.
Although, since you did mention it, what if Samus/Vader/anyone opened a communications channel to try and talk? Would this open a 'breach' in the hypothetical suit to use the Force through?

I'm not sure about an opened communication channel, but I'm not sure if they can even communicate. Even, then, it would be turned off.


Would it? Samus isn't the type to open up her channels to talk to her enemies? That would come as surprising to me given that her games are about exploration- she just walks around in radio silence? I'm pretty sure she was open coms in Corruption at least.


Alpha or Omega wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:
He's got millions of people to tell him which screen to look at.

And he's got long distances to cover, by the time he reaches one of the million guys who told him, the target would be long gone.


...Millions of guys who say, "She's in location X!" Followed by Vader turning to look at the camera that looks at location X.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4413
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: The Hunt for Darth Vader

Postby Alpha or Omega » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:55 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:Would it? Samus isn't the type to open up her channels to talk to her enemies? That would come as surprising to me given that her games are about exploration- she just walks around in radio silence?

The only time she talked to an enemy was Gandrayda, and that was because Gandrayda mimicked a Federation Marine.

Friendlysociopath wrote:...Millions of guys who say, "She's in location X!" Followed by Vader turning to look at the camera that looks at location X.

Followed by Vader saying in which room is the camera in, or if he's in said room, has to switch to camera number Y. By the time he sees it. Zeratul would have vanished or the other three dudes would've blasted through the Stormies.
Image
Happy New Years
User avatar
Alpha or Omega
Zombie Eater
 
Posts: 4767
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:33 am
Location: On the Move

PreviousNext

Return to Factpile Debates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Friendlysociopath, Polloloko and 4 guests