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Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:05 pm

Polloloko wrote:Lets say that Anakin & Saber are phisically equals, more or less that Anakin can fight evenly against Saber like Shirou fighting against Servants for example, I just dont like one sided matches thats all -_-

!, You know what?...You're actually right about the lightsaber part, ok its a wrap.

Who is gana take it? Anakin? Saber? Saber Alter? or Darth Vader?



Presumably this leaves us in the same boat as before. If Anakin uses TK, he can presumably Force Saber away or into the lava, which presumably will kill her.
Unless Saber busts out Excalibur or perhaps Strike Air to kill him from a distance.

Physically Saber would've trashed him prior to the nerf.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:07 pm

To elaborate:

Saber and (EU) Anakin both have precognition.
Both allow them to predict the actions of their opponent. Presumably this should cancel out.
However, both of their precog also tells them basically what to do against an opponent even if they don't know why. Presumably this should cancel out.

Saber has her Invisible Edge, which hides the length of her sword and makes it difficult to gauge her reach. Keen attention to detail can circumvent this AFAIK since Lancer figured it out. Force-users have such attention. However Invisible Edge clearly states that people who don't see only with their eyes (one of the few specific Force points that we know for sure) can negate it.
So, she can see his weapon, he can see hers.
Of the two- both fight with styles the other isn't very comfortable with. Lightsaber combat is noted in the EU to be very different from typical sword-fighting- though IIRC it was Luke who knew the differences enough to say it was dangerous to wield a lightsaber like a traditional sword.

Anakin/Vader has TK and can theoretically push Saber into areas that are hazardous- such as lava. I certainly can't think of an instance where Fate/stay indicated even the environment couldn't harm Servants. The only thing I recall is saying magical energy is required- which the Force would be supplying in this instance.
Saber can use Excalibur to blast Anakin away- and he presumably will not survive.
Though a note- Obi-Wan in the EU was fond of using the Force to mess with people's hands while fighting. Anakin wouldn't know it- Vader (having had it used on him) might. He certainly could disarm Han's weapon in the movies and he repeatedly did it in the Rogue 1 sequence so if he pulls that while Saber is charging Excalibur- she could possibly be disarmed or the attack might be tampered with.

Since they're physically matched, combat between the two of them basically devolves into a contest of skill. Problem being they fight with different styles so that's almost impossible to judge.
I will say Lightsaber combat as of movies 2 and 3 is asinine and involves much pointless spinning- which provides ample openings for Saber to get attacks in and it was a majority of the old EU was written around in terms of lightsaber combat.

That said, I believe they're reverting back to more traditional lightsaber combat like in episode 1 judging by Force Awakens and Rogue 1. This would be a weird meta-thing since the changes occur based on our viewing timeline of the movie- not the timeline in said movie.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby wingedlion » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:50 pm

Freindlysociopath wrote:However, both of their precog also tells them basically what to do against an opponent even if they don't know why.

Anakin's precog does this?
Freindlysociopath wrote:Keen attention to detail can circumvent this AFAIK since Lancer figured it out

That did not happen.
In fact Lancer was kinda getting pissed cause he did not know what Saber was wielding.
Freindlysociopath wrote:The only thing I recall is saying magical energy is required- which the Force would be supplying in this instance.

Well again, if the force counts as magic, than Saber should be protected from it due to magic resistance.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:48 pm

wingedlion wrote:
Freindlysociopath wrote:However, both of their precog also tells them basically what to do against an opponent even if they don't know why.

Anakin's precog does this?


Well, Luke's precog did IIRC, presumably Anakin's precog would do the same as it's the same ability; though I will admit it's a sketchy area as I'm basing it on the few EU books I read. I believe the novelization of episode 1 also featured Qui Gon's precog doing this. Alas, I don't know where to look so I can't back it up. The wiki is very unhelpful in this regard.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Precognition
I swear this page used to be bigger. That or they're dividing up powers oddly. Anakin for example sensed an attempt was being made on Padme's life without having any indication of what was happening. Obi-wan then jumped through a window, blind, because he knew the droid was there and he could grab it.


wingedlion wrote:
Freindlysociopath wrote:Keen attention to detail can circumvent this AFAIK since Lancer figured it out

That did not happen.
In fact Lancer was kinda getting pissed cause he did not know what Saber was wielding.


I'm fairly sure I recall a scene where someone told Saber they knew the length of her sword even though they couldn't see it after they'd battled for some time. As Berserker doesn't speak and I've never actually seen Gilgamesh's fight with Saber- that leaves Lancer and Assassin in either Fate/stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works, or Zero. I'll have to check the battles but I'm fairly sure a Lancer made that claim.


wingedlion wrote:
Freindlysociopath wrote:The only thing I recall is saying magical energy is required- which the Force would be supplying in this instance.

Well again, if the force counts as magic, than Saber should be protected from it due to magic resistance.


Uh, you're gonna need to pull up some Fate/stay reasoning for this. Magical energy and 'spells' in Fate/stay are not the same thing and even the spells are separated further into Magecraft and Magic, all of which are not treated the same by their systems. What, specifically, is the distinction that makes the Force something that's going to be resisted? What defines Fate/stay magic?

The description of Resistance seems to point that it's specifically a power that involves filling your body with magical energy to throw off invading magical energy (a spell)
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Magecraft#Resistance
which matches with Saber's magic resistance coming from her blood. Magic Resistance is specified to cancel out spells altogether when cast against someone but doesn't retcon how the spells function with the invading magical energy in the body. As such, the Force isn't a spell and doesn't function as spells in Fate/stay do if that's how they work. There's no invasion of magical energy to your body- the Force simply acts on you. It entering your body is for specific techniques like attacking your organs.

Also consider that Fate/stay cares very much about scale and importance in the overall scheme of the universe when ranking things. The Force would rank quite highly in both regards as it's a concept that permeates the entire Star Wars verse. It's not a power of Anakin's remember- it's an entity in and of itself that Anakin calls on. The closest parallel I can think of would be if the Holy Grail used magic on someone through another being as a conduit.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby wingedlion » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:36 am

Freindlysociopath wrote:I'm fairly sure I recall a scene where someone told Saber they knew the length of her sword even though they couldn't see it after they'd battled for some time. As Berserker doesn't speak and I've never actually seen Gilgamesh's fight with Saber- that leaves Lancer and Assassin in either Fate/stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works, or Zero. I'll have to check the battles but I'm fairly sure a Lancer made that claim.

It's Assassin your talking about, and he has eye of the mind false (sixth sense).
Freindlysociopath wrote:Uh, you're gonna need to pull up some Fate/stay reasoning for this. Magical energy and 'spells' in Fate/stay are not the same thing and even the spells are separated further into Magecraft and Magic, all of which are not treated the same by their systems. What, specifically, is the distinction that makes the Force something that's going to be resisted? What defines Fate/stay magic?

The description of Resistance seems to point that it's specifically a power that involves filling your body with magical energy to throw off invading magical energy (a spell)
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Magecraft#Resistance
which matches with Saber's magic resistance coming from her blood. Magic Resistance is specified to cancel out spells altogether when cast against someone but doesn't retcon how the spells function with the invading magical energy in the body. As such, the Force isn't a spell and doesn't function as spells in Fate/stay do if that's how they work. There's no invasion of magical energy to your body- the Force simply acts on you. It entering your body is for specific techniques like attacking your organs.

You are mashing two different things together. The resistance that mages possess is not the same thing as the resistance that Servants possess. In the first place, mage's resistance applies only to more internal spells like mind control or binding. That's why they fill their bodies with magical energy; the invading magical energy their rejecting is magic that's trying to control you. That's why mages usually don't use those things against each other- their bodies are naturally resistant to those types of things. This is why, to bypass that, they usually use more direct spells to attack their enemy mages with- cause their external, not internal.
Furthermore, a mages resistance literally disrupts a spell before it can take hold. That's why they can prevent it from affecting them in the first place-it never gets to activate.
https://youtu.be/LEdlGkX5aOY?t=912
watch up to 18:38
In contrast, Magic resistance(servant) outright cancels the spells themselves, which is why Caster can't affect Saber with anything at all- even direct spells such as her blasts. It never even touches her.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Friendlysociopath » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:47 pm

wingedlion wrote:
Freindlysociopath wrote:I'm fairly sure I recall a scene where someone told Saber they knew the length of her sword even though they couldn't see it after they'd battled for some time. As Berserker doesn't speak and I've never actually seen Gilgamesh's fight with Saber- that leaves Lancer and Assassin in either Fate/stay Night, Unlimited Blade Works, or Zero. I'll have to check the battles but I'm fairly sure a Lancer made that claim.

It's Assassin your talking about, and he has eye of the mind false (sixth sense).


After looking through that on the wiki I will admit I was incorrect on both accounts and you were right.
Although the description of this ability very much solidifies that the Force should be able to guide him past the Invisible Air. That's one thing I can nail down at least since the physical terms for the battle are... changed.


wingedlion wrote:
Freindlysociopath wrote:Uh, you're gonna need to pull up some Fate/stay reasoning for this. Magical energy and 'spells' in Fate/stay are not the same thing and even the spells are separated further into Magecraft and Magic, all of which are not treated the same by their systems. What, specifically, is the distinction that makes the Force something that's going to be resisted? What defines Fate/stay magic?

The description of Resistance seems to point that it's specifically a power that involves filling your body with magical energy to throw off invading magical energy (a spell)
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Magecraft#Resistance
which matches with Saber's magic resistance coming from her blood. Magic Resistance is specified to cancel out spells altogether when cast against someone but doesn't retcon how the spells function with the invading magical energy in the body. As such, the Force isn't a spell and doesn't function as spells in Fate/stay do if that's how they work. There's no invasion of magical energy to your body- the Force simply acts on you. It entering your body is for specific techniques like attacking your organs.


You are mashing two different things together. The resistance that mages possess is not the same thing as the resistance that Servants possess. In the first place, mage's resistance applies only to more internal spells like mind control or binding. That's why they fill their bodies with magical energy; the invading magical energy their rejecting is magic that's trying to control you. That's why mages usually don't use those things against each other- their bodies are naturally resistant to those types of things. This is why, to bypass that, they usually use more direct spells to attack their enemy mages with- cause their external, not internal.



Technically the exact wording is that it's simple and acts like a knife, aka, a physical attack.
However, this does mark a point for magus resistance and the basis of how some spells work, they go inside of you and you can push them off with your own magical energy. For future reference in Fate/stay matches- this is how magic needs to function for magus to resist it.
Could I get the scene where the magic doesn't even touch Saber? I know you've shown it before but I'd like to see it again just so I can read it.


wingedlion wrote:In contrast, Magic resistance(servant) outright cancels the spells themselves, which is why Caster can't affect Saber with anything at all- even direct spells such as her blasts. It never even touches her.


Yes, and Caster's spells are described as an artillery strike IIRC. Anakin's force in the EU was capable of throwing around weapon platforms
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... naught.jpg

Battalions of droids
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... talion.gif

Ripping apart spider droids (IIRC these things are pretty big)
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... +droid.jpg

Now, ordinarily this would be hard enough to compare two things obviously not the same as TK throwing things around is not based on artillery, but even an artillery strike hitting a car won't destroy it like Anakin would be able to; apparently Fate/stay doesn't have TK showings to gauge these against?
This for reference IS an artillery strike hitting various cars- or very near them in some cases.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... h-of-cars/
Even that energy point-blank will not rip the car apart. Ripping droids apart (which IIRC are made of some sci-fi metal that's stronger than steel) is actually quite impressive in comparison.
Spoiler
Suddenly Aelfinn's warning about my Subject-hunting-missiles that reduce cars to shrapnel including the frame makes a lot more sense




The Force as a concept would (AFAIK) definitely rank quite high in Fate/verse. It basically is within everyone and everything, it can create people to serve it (Anakin) and keep their spirits past their deaths to continue their work (Force Ghosts) and in the EU allows all sorts of higher shenanigans like Force Storm (even if Skywalker can't use them) and even resurrection (Maul?).
As such, would it not be given a rating much higher than the typical fare we see from the Servants? Saber's Excalibur is labled as impressive for being able to destroy a Fortress, the Force is capable of so much more. Anakin is channeling this power- it's not his power. The ranking it has is entirely separate from Anakin himself- isn't it? Regardless of how he uses the power- the ranking it has to bypass stuff like magical resistance should still be fair game I would think.


Sidenote: While I have no interest in pursuing this for reals, Anakin is clearly as strong as Saber since he ALSO strikes like a meteor. (wink)
Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker—Skywalker was getting stronger.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Polloloko » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:48 pm

So this match is like:

Saber VS. Anakin = Saber with high dif ?

Saber VS. Darth Vader = Darth Vader.

Right?
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:08 pm

Polloloko wrote:So this match is like:

Saber VS. Anakin = Saber with high dif ?

Saber VS. Darth Vader = Darth Vader.

Right?


It's no different. If Anakin can use his Force to defeat Saber, Vader can.
If Anakin can't use his Force to defeat Saber, Vader won't make a difference.
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Re: Saber VS. Anakin Skywalker.

Postby Polloloko » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:36 pm

It's no different. If Anakin can use his Force to defeat Saber, Vader can.
If Anakin can't use his Force to defeat Saber, Vader won't make a difference.


50/50 then XP I like that
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