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What if... Link & Sora switch places?

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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby darkwingdragon709 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:01 am

...yeeeeah bro I can't let that one go(even though you did admit that what you said was questionable), It will be hard to prove that sora taking multiple hits to bust through the rocks was simply to "waste time" and had absolutely nothing to do with him simply not being strong enough to do it in one swing, especially since its a QTE...if anything the heartless were the time wasters.

While what a character can do in combat holds value, you can't simply dismiss what they do outside of it. Situations come up when a character has to make haste cause lives are on the line, if a supposed character is claimed to be super fast based on sight alone, but moves too slow to help someone before they die and we know for sure that the hero was goin as fast as they could, this would cause doubt for his speed. Just like how we measure heroes strength and speed when fighting to the death, we always agree that they would most likely move at thier fastest or strike thier hardest when trying to kill, but when its claimed that one can throw a mountain, but his blows barely move a 150lbs person, doesn't at the very least crack the ground or have ANY environmental influences at all what so ever...then the heroes striking power as related to his lifting strength should be questioned cause many variables come up at that point. He may hold back when striking for what ever reason, or he simply may not hit with the same force as he can lift, either way it shouldn't be ignored cause it conflicts with other stuff. Here's another example, at the end of KH1, sora and the gang struggled a LOT to close the door after beating ansem, for sora to have strength like Hercules closing it shoulda been a breeze. While you could try to argue that the big block in the colosseum was "magic" so it couldn't be moved by physical might(which I and I think others don't buy), this can't be said about the big door. Magic was needed to lock it but they had to physically close it first...add that they had to hurry and close it as well so there was no excuses here...such as sora being "lazy"...(sorry I had to get you again for that one lol). Sora simply wasn't strong enough to close the doors solo or as easy as one should if they have enough strength to throw a mountain(which after lookin again, the rock titan in KH is nowhere near the size of a mountain, some houses are bigger than him).
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby wingedlion » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:19 am

darkwingdragon709 wrote:Ok...Hold up...I'm not tryin to be a jerk or anything it's just that what you guys are telling me and what I'm seeing are different so I'll try to pace my questions.
Ok...all of soras drive forms are him accessing power that he already has right?(though no official source says this as far as I can find)valor in particular has him use his physical strength to the fullest(or atleast as strong as he was in KH1). So why is it that in valor form he still has to wack at the rocks several times before they break?

In his magic form, why is he using magic power that he's never used in KH one such as hovering over the ground and shooting magic energy from the keyblade? It'll be one thing if sora was only using moves that he had in KH1, but he's clearly using abilities never before seen. It looks more like he was reset, and now using new powers higher than before.

How is text from the game not an official source?
As for him not showing them before, I'm not saying some of the unique abilities the drive forms give him are familiar to Sora at that point. Sora was obviously surprised at the prospect of two keyblades, for example. It's likely that Drive forms take Sora's growth in specific areas on a different path than it went before. Otherwise, all he would need was Limit form. Regardless of some of his new abilities, however, it doesn't change the fact that the general power was something that Sora must have had already. So while, for example, Valor form has him use new abilities such as Dual wield or various energy strikes, his physical strength was still something he had previously. Otherwise, it wouldn't be something that he's unlocking.
darkwingdragon709 wrote:this can't be said about the big door.

Um, yes it can? That "big door" is the Door to Darkness. It is literally what seperates the two realms from each other. How is that not magic?
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby darkwingdragon709 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:30 am

It was a big physical door to darkness, either way it required the group to physically close it by force. There was no use of trinity power, or magic, we see them grunt and struggle to slowly push it closed then use magic to seal it from both sides.
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby wingedlion » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:34 am

darkwingdragon709 wrote:It was a big physical door to darkness, either way it required the group to physically close it by force. There was no use of trinity power, or magic, we see them grunt and struggle to slowly push it closed then use magic to seal it from both sides.

Ok? I must be failing to see your point. Whether they did physically or not was never my point. My point was that using a magical door being hard to close to try and disprove Sora's strength does not work, because it's not a normal door.
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby darkwingdragon709 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:04 am

wingedlion wrote:
darkwingdragon709 wrote:It was a big physical door to darkness, either way it required the group to physically close it by force. There was no use of trinity power, or magic, we see them grunt and struggle to slowly push it closed then use magic to seal it from both sides.

Ok? I must be failing to see your point. Whether they did physically or not was never my point. My point was that using a magical door being hard to close to try and disprove Sora's strength does not work, because it's not a normal door.

Yeah the door wasn't normal...it was a freqkin huge door leading to darkness. My point was that while the door wasn't normal in any way shape or form, it required physical force to close. There was no magic spell, no crazy magic winds or magical force keeping it open, the sheer size and weight made the trio struggle to close it. They tried and couldn't at first, then took a breather and gave it all they had and slowly closed the door.
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby wingedlion » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:13 am

darkwingdragon709 wrote:
wingedlion wrote:
darkwingdragon709 wrote:It was a big physical door to darkness, either way it required the group to physically close it by force. There was no use of trinity power, or magic, we see them grunt and struggle to slowly push it closed then use magic to seal it from both sides.

Ok? I must be failing to see your point. Whether they did physically or not was never my point. My point was that using a magical door being hard to close to try and disprove Sora's strength does not work, because it's not a normal door.

Yeah the door wasn't normal...it was a freqkin huge door leading to darkness. My point was that while the door wasn't normal in any way shape or form, it required physical force to close. There was no magic spell, no crazy magic winds or magical force keeping it open, the sheer size and weight made the trio struggle to close it. They tried and couldn't at first, then took a breather and gave it all they had and slowly closed the door.

Yes, it required physical force to close. And apparently, the physical force required for that was Sora and Riku working together. How does that go against any of Sora's strength feats?
You don't know how heavy it is. It's not normal. How can you tell how heavy it is if it's not a normal door? How can you say that this goes against Sora's other strength feats when we don't know much about the physical properties of the door at all. That's my point in mentioning that it's a magical door; beyond the fact that it takes two Keyblades to seal it, we know nothing of it's properties such as how heavy or hard it is. All we know is that it's strong enough to bar two parts of the universe from interacting with each other. All we know is that it takes both Sora and Riku to close it, which can just as well mean that that the Door itself is really heavy, rather than any weakness on Sora's part. So you saying that Sora not being strong enough to close the door means that he is weaker than his other feats would suggest is unproven, cause you have no idea how heavy that door really is.
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:23 am

darkwingdragon709 wrote:...yeeeeah bro I can't let that one go(even though you did admit that what you said was questionable), It will be hard to prove that sora taking multiple hits to bust through the rocks was simply to "waste time" and had absolutely nothing to do with him simply not being strong enough to do it in one swing, especially since its a QTE...if anything the heartless were the time wasters.


Well no, it's quite easy to prove it's to waste time, because Sora cannot accumulate damage on the rocks like he were actually weakening them with his attacks. If he were actually weakening it with every preceding attack, eventually he would be able to bust it without the beginning bunch of attacks- he cannot. Ironically this if taken super-literally would counter the "he has to weaken it" with previous attacks claim as they apparently do absolutely nothing and the final attack does all of the work- as you can deal a hundred weaker attacks and only the final one will break the wall.
No matter how many times you start the animation and are interrupted, he will always require to start the same number of hits again before the final blow breaks it. The fact that this is a timed area where if you don't make it through in time you lose only supports this further.



darkwingdragon709 wrote:While what a character can do in combat holds value, you can't simply dismiss what they do outside of it. Situations come up when a character has to make haste cause lives are on the line, if a supposed character is claimed to be super fast based on sight alone, but moves too slow to help someone before they die and we know for sure that the hero was goin as fast as they could, this would cause doubt for his speed.


If lives are on the line, combat is involved. Also speed is by far the most PIS-written ability in fiction so even then failing to reach someone isn't necessarily a valid reason to doubt speed.
Also you failed to address my initial concern- which is how developers think in terms of combat and then outside of combat. Noctis in FF15 is required to block hits from Titan (a massive bunch of rock) to open up the QTE to defeat him. Noctis will then have to work with his team to push the car if it breaks down.
These two things cannot both be true, Noctis cannot output enough force to block Titan and still struggle to push that car, which is the showing he should be judged by?
Considering one of these showings was specifically meant to show Noctis' strength in-combat, I would say that one is clearly the one that his combat abilities should be judged by.


darkwingdragon709 wrote:Just like how we measure heroes strength and speed when fighting to the death, we always agree that they would most likely move at thier fastest or strike thier hardest when trying to kill, but when its claimed that one can throw a mountain, but his blows barely move a 150lbs person, doesn't at the very least crack the ground or have ANY environmental influences at all what so ever...


Just pointing out for Hades, Sora barely moves him as well in battle in the same way, yet in the following cutscene his strike sends Hades flying from the arena, which assures us gamelay does not disprove strength values in the way you imply.
Also almost no game has environmental destruction like that regardless of how strong a character is- even the blatantly stupid-powerful ones like Raiden from Metal Gear or Asura from Asura's Wrath. Just like almost no game properly shows supersonic or higher speeds ripping up the ground underneath a character as they move. I could most definitely point out Link violates that particular rule just as much as Sora- such as lifting that pillar with the golden gauntlets. Regardless of how strong that makes Link- he either should've sunk into the ground underneath him or shot up into the rock he picks up- the environment certainly didn't act correctly there.


darkwingdragon709 wrote:Here's another example, at the end of KH1, sora and the gang struggled a LOT to close the door after beating ansem, for sora to have strength like Hercules closing it shoulda been a breeze. While you could try to argue that the big block in the colosseum was "magic" so it couldn't be moved by physical might(which I and I think others don't buy), this can't be said about the big door. Magic was needed to lock it but they had to physically close it first...add that they had to hurry and close it as well so there was no excuses here...such as sora being "lazy"...(sorry I had to get you again for that one lol). Sora simply wasn't strong enough to close the doors solo or as easy as one should if they have enough strength to throw a mountain(which after lookin again, the rock titan in KH is nowhere near the size of a mountain, some houses are bigger than him).


Technically speaking, mountain is a variable term, there are mountains that are only a couple hundred feat tall; and in KH3 the rock titan is most definitely a couple hundred feet tall by the looks of it.
Also are you talking about the door to Kingdom Hearts? The door that opens without being touched and blasts Ansem with light? That links to another plane of existence? That 100% mundane and physical door with no magical qualities whatsoever about it?
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby darkwingdragon709 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:34 am

It took sora, donald, goofy, and riku to close the door. We don't know how heavy the door was but now one would have to prove that the door was at least heavier tgan the rock titan for it to be enough to make some one that can casually throw the titan into space struggle to push...that is if said person actually sat there and traded blows with this person in the first place right?

Now I can say that I highly doubt the door was anywhere near as heavy let alone heavier than the rock titan, we have no way of knowing for sure just like we have no way of knowing if sora traded blows with Hercules in there battle outside of gameplay rather than avoid his attacks. Stating that sora without a doubt traded blows with Hercules is basically the only noteworthy strength feat he had in KH1 where all other feats stem from, problem is there is no proof of this beyond doubt, we can only speculate that sora does or doesn't match Hercules. If he doesn't, then scenes like the big door or the big stone block make perfect sense, if he does...now you have to nake other assumptions about how the block was held there via magic which isn't proven or mentioned in the game, lore or story. Or how this big door must be crazy heavier than a house sized sentiant rock monster twice the size of the door beyond reasonable doubt...when the simpler answer is that the kid simply wasn't at that caliber of strength at the time.
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby wingedlion » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:41 am

darkwingdragon709 wrote:It took sora, donald, goofy, and riku to close the door. We don't know how heavy the door was but now one would have to prove that the door was at least heavier tgan the rock titan for it to be enough to make some one that can casually throw the titan into space struggle to push...that is if said person actually sat there and traded blows with this person in the first place right?

Well, no, this is wrong. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, which was you. Your the one that's apparently stating that the Door shouldn't be heavy enough for Sora to struggle with, despite not knowing anything about the physical weight of the door, and despite the fact that, as you said, it took all of them together to close, which could just as well mean that it's really heavy. Your the one that needs to prove that it isn't.
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Re: What if... Link & Sora switch places?

Postby darkwingdragon709 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:00 pm

wingedlion wrote:
darkwingdragon709 wrote:It took sora, donald, goofy, and riku to close the door. We don't know how heavy the door was but now one would have to prove that the door was at least heavier tgan the rock titan for it to be enough to make some one that can casually throw the titan into space struggle to push...that is if said person actually sat there and traded blows with this person in the first place right?

Well, no, this is wrong. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, which was you. Your the one that's apparently stating that the Door is not heavy or not strong, despite not knowing anything about the physical strength of the door, and despite the fact that, as you said, it took all of them together to close, which could just as well mean that it's strong. Your the one that needs to prove that it isn't.

I never said the door wasn't heavy, it's huge and required everyone to push it closed. My claim was that it required physical force to push closed with no magic being used by the group or magic stopping them from closing it. You then implied that the door musta been heavier than anything sora and the group had encountered before in the game because it was an abnormal door and doesn't cast doubt on his strength, so now you have to prove beyond doubt that the door was heavier than the rock titan, cause according to everyone here sora has strength relative to Hercules who can casually toss the titan.

@friendly
Yes...that door, the door that could physical be touched and pushed without magical aid and the group having no means of closing any other way, thats right.

As for the titan, it's clear that its "grown" since KH2...by a LOT cause when Hercules threw it, it was about the size of a house. Still, we'll see if either sora or herc throws him again when ever its released...some day lol. My time to post is limited cause I'm at work, please don't think I'm ignoring the rest of your post, I can only focus on debating one person at a time at the moment.
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