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Superman vs Goku

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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Lowk » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:21 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:
hellboy147 wrote:
Still gets murked by Supes, but the tournament of power is about to start.

Doubt anyone would say that anymore after Ultra Instinct introduction :D jokes.. On a serious note, shall we wait until the tournament of power ending ?


Not really a choice in the matter- it's gonna end whether we wait or not.
Likewise the match isn't going to end until both characters no longer have content being produced- which for Superman is fucking never.


One day Superman might die and Jon is what'll be left.... Or he becomes a Gohan. It could go either way.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby hellboy147 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:18 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RmufWKrogk Haven't seen Goku this ruthless before.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:54 pm

Well, Ultra Instinct was explained more, albeit basically repeating what it did prior.

Spoiler
Vegeta flashes back to what Whis said, "It takes time for your senses and brain/commands to reach your bodies." Specifically he referred to it as "your speed is limited".
So it seems what fans interpret it as is valid, Goku when using Ultra Instinct does not use his brain or his senses to react to attacks, there's no thought whatsoever put into his defense; his body does it without him. Theoretically this makes it implausible to hit him since by proxy a body has no reaction time to speak of- reaction time as a concept requires your brain and senses.

The limitation Goku currently has (I say 'currently' because Whis said Goku hadn't mastered it, Goku doesn't *not* master anything he tries to do) is that he cannot put Ultra Instinct into attacks because people always think about whether an attack will be effective.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Aelfinn » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:29 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:Well, Ultra Instinct was explained more, albeit basically repeating what it did prior.

Spoiler
Vegeta flashes back to what Whis said, "It takes time for your senses and brain/commands to reach your bodies." Specifically he referred to it as "your speed is limited".
So it seems what fans interpret it as is valid, Goku when using Ultra Instinct does not use his brain or his senses to react to attacks, there's no thought whatsoever put into his defense; his body does it without him. Theoretically this makes it implausible to hit him since by proxy a body has no reaction time to speak of- reaction time as a concept requires your brain and senses.

The limitation Goku currently has (I say 'currently' because Whis said Goku hadn't mastered it, Goku doesn't *not* master anything he tries to do) is that he cannot put Ultra Instinct into attacks because people always think about whether an attack will be effective.



Responding to the Spoiler, I'm not sure how much people care. Lol anyway, his body still has to have a reaction time in that in moves, correct? Like his speed is not infinite. I'm thinking the most accurate description is that he's somehow fighting with reflexes. I don't mean "oh, responding with a punch is just a reflex", I mean the anatomical "reflex", wherein body commands either don't go to the Central Nervous System or maybe interact with at best a couple. When you have a reflex, your body basically reacts on its own and communicates entirely with itself.


The classic knee reflex, for example, is literally the result of two neurons firing. One feeling your knee get hit, the other neuron telling your muscle to contract. In comparison, something like catching a ball requires hundreds of thousands of neurons to fire and interact. To be clear, some reflexes take more than two neurons, but not very many in comparison to consciously reacting to something.
https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/reactiontime
http://csmbio.csm.jmu.edu/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex



I don't quite know how much faster that would make Goku, but it basically removes the Recognition Time out of the equation: Recognition Time + Action Time = Reaction Time.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:06 am

Hey Aelfinn, long time no see.

Aelfinn wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Well, Ultra Instinct was explained more, albeit basically repeating what it did prior.

Spoiler
Vegeta flashes back to what Whis said, "It takes time for your senses and brain/commands to reach your bodies." Specifically he referred to it as "your speed is limited".
So it seems what fans interpret it as is valid, Goku when using Ultra Instinct does not use his brain or his senses to react to attacks, there's no thought whatsoever put into his defense; his body does it without him. Theoretically this makes it implausible to hit him since by proxy a body has no reaction time to speak of- reaction time as a concept requires your brain and senses.

The limitation Goku currently has (I say 'currently' because Whis said Goku hadn't mastered it, Goku doesn't *not* master anything he tries to do) is that he cannot put Ultra Instinct into attacks because people always think about whether an attack will be effective.



Responding to the Spoiler, I'm not sure how much people care. Lol anyway, his body still has to have a reaction time in that in moves, correct? Like his speed is not infinite. I'm thinking the most accurate description is that he's somehow fighting with reflexes. I don't mean "oh, responding with a punch is just a reflex", I mean the anatomical "reflex", wherein body commands either don't go to the Central Nervous System or maybe interact with at best a couple. When you have a reflex, your body basically reacts on its own and communicates entirely with itself.


His body has a speed, not a reaction time, but otherwise yes he's still limited so far as such things go.
Granted at one point he was moving through stopped time based purely on powering up enough so whether he has infinite speed or not is somewhat vague as that's theoretically the explanation for it.
You could counter that perhaps the stop is only very, very slow but I'll bet you $50 all Dragonball media is going to keep referring to it as a Time Stop and databooks will mention Hit stops time, not slows it down.
Not like speed is consistently used in fiction for what it allows you to do in the first place, vibrating very fast isn't what lets you phase through things for example, that's vibrating at a certain frequency IIRC; but it's what it is.
Given that it's now been repeated multiple times that the characters are able to destroy the universe, and that in DBZ you can just power your way through pretty much any hax, I have to wonder if Akira is deliberately trying to give Goku the ultimate, "1v1 me bro" powerset.


Aelfinn wrote:The classic knee reflex, for example, is literally the result of two neurons firing. One feeling your knee get hit, the other neuron telling your muscle to contract. In comparison, something like catching a ball requires hundreds of thousands of neurons to fire and interact. To be clear, some reflexes take more than two neurons, but not very many in comparison to consciously reacting to something.
https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/reactiontime
http://csmbio.csm.jmu.edu/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

I don't quite know how much faster that would make Goku, but it basically removes the Recognition Time out of the equation: Recognition Time + Action Time = Reaction Time.


For lack of a better explanation (or lack thereof) he can now apparently instantly begin movement the instant his opponent does- without the delay of having to even notice it.
The thing is- the reflex occurs without the physical stimulus you describe. Not only is it reflex- his body is planning by itself how to move- which should require brain functions.
For example during the battle he digs his feet into a rock to slow himself down and stop from falling- your body doesn't have that as a reflex.
Edit: Or he's able to plan without using his body? Also viable I suppose.
Given that Jiren was capable of knowing where flying projectiles would go prior to them actually traveling said path- it's plausible it counts as precognition as well.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Aelfinn » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:32 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:Hey Aelfinn, long time no see.


It's good to be back, at least for a little bit. Grad school is quite the adventure lol.

Friendlysociopath wrote:
Aelfinn wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Well, Ultra Instinct was explained more, albeit basically repeating what it did prior.

Spoiler
Vegeta flashes back to what Whis said, "It takes time for your senses and brain/commands to reach your bodies." Specifically he referred to it as "your speed is limited".
So it seems what fans interpret it as is valid, Goku when using Ultra Instinct does not use his brain or his senses to react to attacks, there's no thought whatsoever put into his defense; his body does it without him. Theoretically this makes it implausible to hit him since by proxy a body has no reaction time to speak of- reaction time as a concept requires your brain and senses.

The limitation Goku currently has (I say 'currently' because Whis said Goku hadn't mastered it, Goku doesn't *not* master anything he tries to do) is that he cannot put Ultra Instinct into attacks because people always think about whether an attack will be effective.



Responding to the Spoiler, I'm not sure how much people care. Lol anyway, his body still has to have a reaction time in that in moves, correct? Like his speed is not infinite. I'm thinking the most accurate description is that he's somehow fighting with reflexes. I don't mean "oh, responding with a punch is just a reflex", I mean the anatomical "reflex", wherein body commands either don't go to the Central Nervous System or maybe interact with at best a couple. When you have a reflex, your body basically reacts on its own and communicates entirely with itself.


His body has a speed, not a reaction time, but otherwise yes he's still limited so far as such things go.
Granted at one point he was moving through stopped time based purely on powering up enough so whether he has infinite speed or not is somewhat vague as that's theoretically the explanation for it.
You could counter that perhaps the stop is only very, very slow but I'll bet you $50 all Dragonball media is going to keep referring to it as a Time Stop and databooks will mention Hit stops time, not slows it down.
Not like speed is consistently used in fiction for what it allows you to do in the first place, vibrating very fast isn't what lets you phase through things for example, much vibrating at a certain frequency IIRC; but it's what it is.
Given that it's now been repeated multiple times that the characters are able to destroy the universe, and that in DBZ you can just power your way through pretty much any hax, I have to wonder if Akira is deliberately trying to give Goku the ultimate, "1v1 me bro" powerset.


Isn't it a characteristic of dragonball that if you're much stronger than someone using a Hax power, it's not allowed to work against you? We know Jiren beat Hit's individual Time Skip not through infinite speed or anything of the like, but through being "Stronger than time", which doesn't make any sense, but whatever. Like how Frieza could use TK against Krillen, but not against Goku.


I kinda also doubt the notion of characters besides Zeno being universe-busting. Kefla at best said she "felt" like she could, but proceeded to come nowhere close to it in the actual fight. The whole Goku vs Beerus was because of the nature of God Ki, if Goku was capable of it on his own then he wouldn't have needed to call on Zeno for it when Zamasu did the "become one with the universe" thing. (Plus the whole tournament of power has been kinda fuckin with the whole "high-end of power" thing, there have been some bad low-showings in there).

Friendlysociopath wrote:
Aelfinn wrote:The classic knee reflex, for example, is literally the result of two neurons firing. One feeling your knee get hit, the other neuron telling your muscle to contract. In comparison, something like catching a ball requires hundreds of thousands of neurons to fire and interact. To be clear, some reflexes take more than two neurons, but not very many in comparison to consciously reacting to something.
https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/reactiontime
http://csmbio.csm.jmu.edu/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

I don't quite know how much faster that would make Goku, but it basically removes the Recognition Time out of the equation: Recognition Time + Action Time = Reaction Time.


For lack of a better explanation (or lack thereof) he can now apparently instantly begin movement the instant his opponent does- without the delay of having to even notice it.
The thing is- the reflex occurs without the physical stimulus you describe. Not only is it reflex- his body is planning by itself how to move- which should require brain functions.
For example during the battle he digs his feet into a rock to slow himself down and stop from falling- your body doesn't have that as a reflex.
Given that Jiren was capable of knowing where flying projectiles would go prior to them actually traveling said path- it's plausible it counts as precognition as well.


Oh I don't doubt at all that what Goku is doing is seven flavors of bullshit if we try to compare it directly to real reflexes, what he's doing is effectively impossible. However, it's the closest comparison I could think of. Each part of his body is encountering stimuli and moving on their own without having to communicate with the brain. That's what a reflex does. Neurons have to fire in order for muscles to contract, that's just how they work, and so it's as if every one of his movements is like a reflex going off.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:45 am

Aelfinn wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Given that it's now been repeated multiple times that the characters are able to destroy the universe, and that in DBZ you can just power your way through pretty much any hax, I have to wonder if Akira is deliberately trying to give Goku the ultimate, "1v1 me bro" powerset.


Isn't it a characteristic of dragonball that if you're much stronger than someone using a Hax power, it's not allowed to work against you? We know Jiren beat Hit's individual Time Skip not through infinite speed or anything of the like, but through being "Stronger than time", which doesn't make any sense, but whatever. Like how Frieza could use TK against Krillen, but not against Goku.


Does seem to be a recurring trend, yeah.


Aelfinn wrote:I kinda also doubt the notion of characters besides Zeno being universe-busting. Kefla at best said she "felt" like she could, but proceeded to come nowhere close to it in the actual fight. The whole Goku vs Beerus was because of the nature of God Ki, if Goku was capable of it on his own then he wouldn't have needed to call on Zeno for it when Zamasu did the "become one with the universe" thing. (Plus the whole tournament of power has been kinda fuckin with the whole "high-end of power" thing, there have been some bad low-showings in there).


Well they did do the handwave thing where they insist the ring is made of special materials that even Gods of Destruction have difficulty breaking. And then the bit where the attack of stated X power didn't hit the thing that would show said power and flew off into nothingness. Dragonball does that one a lot.


Aelfinn wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:
Aelfinn wrote:The classic knee reflex, for example, is literally the result of two neurons firing. One feeling your knee get hit, the other neuron telling your muscle to contract. In comparison, something like catching a ball requires hundreds of thousands of neurons to fire and interact. To be clear, some reflexes take more than two neurons, but not very many in comparison to consciously reacting to something.
https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/reactiontime
http://csmbio.csm.jmu.edu/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

I don't quite know how much faster that would make Goku, but it basically removes the Recognition Time out of the equation: Recognition Time + Action Time = Reaction Time.


For lack of a better explanation (or lack thereof) he can now apparently instantly begin movement the instant his opponent does- without the delay of having to even notice it.
The thing is- the reflex occurs without the physical stimulus you describe. Not only is it reflex- his body is planning by itself how to move- which should require brain functions.
For example during the battle he digs his feet into a rock to slow himself down and stop from falling- your body doesn't have that as a reflex.
Given that Jiren was capable of knowing where flying projectiles would go prior to them actually traveling said path- it's plausible it counts as precognition as well.


Oh I don't doubt at all that what Goku is doing is seven flavors of bullshit if we try to compare it directly to real reflexes, what he's doing is effectively impossible. However, it's the closest comparison I could think of. Each part of his body is encountering stimuli and moving on their own without having to communicate with the brain. That's what a reflex does. Neurons have to fire in order for muscles to contract, that's just how they work, and so it's as if every one of his movements is like a reflex going off.


It's effectively the correct comparison, it just comes across as a bit too coincidental that Goku is getting a lot of power-ups that basically spell out infinite stats unless you look for times he fails like we do.
Destroy universe? Infinite power (sorta)
Move through stopped time? Infinite speed
React without reactions? Infinite reactions


And while characters certainly can be wrong about their powers through exaggeration, it's being repeated a **lot** in Super that the characters are at that level, not only by the characters using such power but from onlookers who have seen universal destruction themselves, and at least once it was straight-up narration and not a character at all.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Aelfinn » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:36 am

I don't want to have giant walls of quotes, so I'll be doing my bullshit thing where I just kinda throw the responses out there.



The ring is made of special materials, for sure, but even some of the explosions we see aren't craaaaazy impressive, and explosions should be acting on the air the same regardless of the material of the ground. Those explosions every once in a while can destroy parts of the stadium, giving us a kind of yield of the material. As Plague of Gripes says in his "Powerlevels are stupid" video, we've been seeing the same feats over and over again.

(BTW I highly recommend the video, he touches upon the narrative problems with the strength growth we see in dragonball https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPwVuC3YOrc )



Goku is getting a lot of powerups that could line up to be infinite in theory, but that's kind of Toriyama's logical end conclusion given that every character has gotten progressively stronger with no end in site. However, I do want to say that based off of established feats that Goku has not demonstrated infinite power, speed, or reactions as of yet.


Where do you refer to narration saying Goku or the like had the power to destroy the universe? As far as I know, the only time it's been relevant has been the Goku vs Beerus fight, and Goku has gotten stronger than that and (with no reason to hold back), not destroyed universes.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:10 am

Aelfinn wrote:Goku is getting a lot of powerups that could line up to be infinite in theory, but that's kind of Toriyama's logical end conclusion given that every character has gotten progressively stronger with no end in site. However, I do want to say that based off of established feats that Goku has not demonstrated infinite power, speed, or reactions as of yet.


Technically speaking, having infinite any stat virtually defies visual media. That's why infinite is a concept, not a practical thing. I cannot think of a way for someone to actually show infinite power short of destroying all reality- which leads me to state that the criteria for infinite needs to be somewhat lessened or else it simply will never be proven.
Speaking of which, forgot an example, a shockwave that grows stronger the farther it travels; sounds like infinite energy at work.
Note: I'm not saying Goku does have infinite anything- only that it does certainly seem to be a way to define a great deal of Super feats that we've been pushing off as, "Unquantifiable", which by its nature- infinite would be. At this point it's beginning to be very consistent in how 'fuck-physics' they're being.


Aelfinn wrote:Where do you refer to narration saying Goku or the like had the power to destroy the universe? As far as I know, the only time it's been relevant has been the Goku vs Beerus fight, and Goku has gotten stronger than that and (with no reason to hold back), not destroyed universes.


Goku has also never destroyed a planet, yet that's fairly commonly accepted as something he can do. The premises are no different.
At least one being is claimed to be capable of destroying a planet/universe.
At least one character actually does destroy a planet/universe.
Multiple characters fight one another and insist they are at the level to destroy the planet/universe and fight people of the same.
Technically speaking, we know of more universes being destroyed than planets in terms of number. We've seen what- 4 planetbusts in the anime? Planet Vegeta, Namek, Earth, Earth again? Zenos has been obliterating universes left and right now, plus the original bunch he destroyed off-screen. This power has been attributed to the Gods of Destruction as well- which is why they have Angels to KO them should they ever be too lively. Every single time Beerus or Champa has come close to actually going all-out, they've been stopped.
Planet-busting isn't enough of an issue for Angels to interfere, neither are stars exempting when it's personally inconvenient, there's nowhere else to go at this point but universal. The one time we know everyone is fighting with everything on the line (the tournament of power arc) they have a specially prepared arena AND dimension specifically for God-tier people to fight. The explanation may be flimsy, but at the level the explanation puts them at, any explanation is flimsy.


As for universe-statements- these ones belong to people who should be knowledgeable on the topic
Vados
https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/o ... -image.png
Whis
https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/o ... -image.png
Narrator
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -At1Tr.jpg
Narrator
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/sc ... -image.jpg
Beerus/Champa
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/aJ0X2yG1xSs/maxresdefault.jpg

That's aside from all the various characters who are questionable about whether they're correctly judging the power involved.
Whis is basically the teacher of this arc, it would make no sense for him to be wrong about something as his purpose is actively giving you the lore, when he doesn't know something- he says so.
Beerus very much would've called Champa on lying if Champa claimed he'd mess up the universe, nothing about their relationship implies he would humor such a boast if it wasn't true. There's no mention of magic shockwaves for them either. Just Champa stating he didn't care what happened to the universe they were in.


You bring up a point of Goku calling Zeno- however (to play the advocate):
Goku at that point was tired and hurt- he needed a Senzu Bean and didn't have one.
Goku also asked Zeno to erase whatshisface- but looked extremely startled when Zeno mentioned he would destroy the world. This would imply Goku didn't expect this exact course of action.
Goku also would then be responsible for the deaths of everyone in that universe, Goku doesn't like killing one person, let alone an entire planet or hundreds of planets.
Goku also is made out to be... pretty dim in Super. I think a website said it best, "Goku went from charming charity fighter to a fucking idiotic psychopath". It honestly may not have occurred to him that he could destroy the universe. Certainly in DBZ he and others had to constantly remind themselves to hold back or they'd destroy the planet.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Kitten Lord » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:51 pm

Are we talking about Super Katchin stadium? Characters being thrown or falling into it break it, if I recall it was cracking due to the giant wolves weight alone so I do not think its that durable based on those notes aside from lesser explosions.

As for infinite speed, reactions, power etc, pretty far off interpretations there.

Planet-busting isn't enough of an issue for Angels to interfere, neither are stars exempting when it's personally inconvenient, there's nowhere else to go at this point but universal.


Well not really, there are solar systems, galaxies etc before that. Course this interpretation/suggestion is an extreme one, maybe they knock them out because they have just had enough and know they will fight pointlessly and destroy a lot of planets for little reason.

Their power is fairly clear as of now landing in the >Planet area.
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