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Superman vs Goku

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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:54 am

@Friendly
You don't know of the speed of any ship he was even speaking of. You don't know what kind of ship he was speaking of. He never says what kind he was referring to. He doesn't say any ship would not have been fast enough. We don't know if taking a ship would be slower because it would need to be prepared before leaving the location. Nothing is said about how close Jiren was to the nearest ship. We don't know the reason, but you're eager to assume that you do.

You don't know if Jiren is even aware of how fast some Namekian ship is, which is why your second premise does such thing. What you're doing is assuming Jiren knows, and if he doesn't know, you're assuming that because you its speed that you can assume Jiren must be traveling faster than it. Here's what I think. I think you should compare Jiren's speed to Goku's. How fast can Goku go without using Jiren as a benchmark to gauge his speed. What I mean is do an individual, independent study so we can avoid power scaling.

I already told you that fiction makes ancient things better than modern stuff, so you don't have to humor me because fiction is just that. So instead, find the speed of a ship Jiren would normally fly in (or better yet, that which is of the origin of Jiren's race) and use that instead of what Namekians and Saiyans fly in to get around.

Your premises are shaky at best, so you don't even have a valid argument. There are too many assumptions. What Jiren said isthat taking a ship would be slow. That's not verbatim. If Jiren doesn't even have an approximate speed of whatever ship he had in mind (which we don't know), then he could not, with any certainty, say using a ship would have been slower of the two options. Unless you wish to say that he has raced whatever ship he had in mind, which would require evidence.

I wouldn't know. That's a little complicated.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:59 am

Mea quidem sententia wrote:@Friendly
You don't know of the speed of any ship he was even speaking of. You don't know what kind of ship he was speaking of. He never says what kind he was referring to. He doesn't say any ship would not have been fast enough. We don't know if taking a ship would be slower because it would need to be prepared before leaving the location. Nothing is said about how close Jiren was to the nearest ship. We don't know the reason, but you're eager to assume that you do.


Never has a ship in Dragonball Z required extensive prep (or even a conscious pilot for some) to take off. So the idea of the ship having a prep period that would delay them comes across as unlikely compared to the assumption that he meant actual speed.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:You don't know if Jiren is even aware of how fast some Namekian ship is, which is why your second premise does such thing. What you're doing is assuming Jiren knows, and if he doesn't know, you're assuming that because you its speed that you can assume Jiren must be traveling faster than it. Here's what I think. I think you should compare Jiren's speed to Goku's. How fast can Goku go without using Jiren as a benchmark to gauge his speed. What I mean is do an individual, independent study so we can avoid power scaling.


I wasn't going to scale Jiren or Goku regardless as of yet as I have no idea how fast Jiren is. However, you are misconstruing the premise. Jiren's knowledge of Namekian ships was not a part of the premise nor was it ever insisted as such. The premise was very simple- that the ship he's referring to is not inferior to a 500 year-old relic. You seem quite eager to assume a lot of subtext into that premise.
Also power scaling is not inherently incorrect- it's a transitive relation.
Take the recent Justice League movie. We know Wonder Woman's feats from her solo movie and also the JL movie- she then was easily dispatched by Superman who was showing himself superior in both strength and speed. Had Superman been featless- we would be able to ascertain that he's clearly stronger and faster than her based on how they interact in Justice League. Even without showing the feats WW did, we know Superman is above them and can perform them.
Dragonball is no different in this regard. Just because they use scaling quite often does not, in itself, make said scaling wrong. How did you put it? "I already told you that fiction does X?" Fiction is very fond of quantifying a person as equal to, or superior than, X thing the audience is already aware of- such as previous characters.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:I already told you that fiction makes ancient things better than modern stuff, so you don't have to humor me because fiction is just that. So instead, find the speed of a ship Jiren would normally fly in (or better yet, that which is of the origin of Jiren's race) and use that instead of what Namekians and Saiyans fly in to get around.


I don't personally care what 'fiction' does- I care what 'Dragonball' does and also what 'reality' does in the case of comparison and also what route evidence favors- a faster or slower ship that Jiren would likely be referring to. Pretty much any tech introduced in the series improves with age- even the Dragon Balls as those are upgraded. As such, I have abundant evidence to insist whatever ship Jiren was thinking of should at a minimum match the old one.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:Your premises are shaky at best, so you don't even have a valid argument. There are too many assumptions. What Jiren said isthat taking a ship would be slow. That's not verbatim. If Jiren doesn't even have an approximate speed of whatever ship he had in mind (which we don't know), then he could not, with any certainty, say using a ship would have been slower of the two options. Unless you wish to say that he has raced whatever ship he had in mind, which would require evidence.


There was not a single thing invalid about that argument using formal logic.
Your counter premise, "Jiren doesn't even have an approximate speed in mind" runs contrary to the statement as he apparently does have 'some' speed and 'some' ship in mind.
He does not need to race any such ship, nor drive it or even see it in action, to make the comparison.

I've never seen an M4 fired, nor have I fired one, nor do I know exactly how fast the bullets go to a specific number, but I know I'm slower than them.
You have no case to assume Jiren has no idea what he's talking about when he makes a statement. I on the other hand have a fairly decent pile of supporting evidence to back my assumptions.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Kitten Lord » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:18 am

The first premise is nonsensical, like I said your assuming it was because the ship was slower than him but if thats the case, the ship is damn slow since nobody in the tournament moves massively faster than light, or the planets are close together. Of course, that assumption does not have to be the case, as i pointed out it could be because the ship has a charge period that he would have had to wait for. Maybe it was damaged and he had to wait for repairs which would take a week or more, there are countless suggestions besides his personal speed in comparison to the ship for why it would have taken longer to come by ship.

Its like assuming someone who runs to his local high street because taking the bus is too slow is running faster than the bus, when it could be because the time table for the bus is long, the wait times, the traffic, low number of buses etc.

having a prep period that would delay them comes across as unlikely compared to the assumption that he meant actual speed.


Yeah, soooo unlikely because of the few ships not having it mentioned for them rather than just assuming Jiren can move at thousands of times the speed of light! :lol:
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:28 am

@Friendly
Spoiler alert next time. JL hasn't been out very long and I currently am not in any situation to see it. I would like to see it. As for the first premise, we don't know. Ships do require preparation, though. Off-screen can't tell us one way or another, so . . . You also don't know if the ships Jiren had in mind are inferior to the Namekian ship. You could say I don't know, either. That's fine. I'm not the one assuming.

The problem with power scaling is that it doesn't always work that way. That's naive. Using Metroid again, when Zebes' gravity from Metroid was calculated at 960 g, proponents used Samus. Any other planet now had to be near those gees, including ships. This meant any human and any alien was also about equal. In 1 g, everyone would be superhuman. This meant Samus' missiles were also must faster than sound. As in, faster than supersonic. And, the series had actual numbers to back all of this up.

Don't be a hypocrite. You say you don't care what fiction does, yet use other fiction instead of DB to prove your point while saying you only care about what DB does.

Take the ship Jiren had in mind and find its speed. Then you'll have more than assumptions. Your "evidence" is weak. I've been baffled the past few days outside of this thread on how people shut their brains off and just accept things without critically examining them. And yes, your premises were invalid. Find better ones. As for me, well, I know an impasse when I see one.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby hellboy147 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:19 pm

The first premise is nonsensical, like I said your assuming it was because the ship was slower than him but if thats the case, the ship is damn slow since nobody in the tournament moves massively faster than light, or the planets are close together.

_
The ship was indeed slower than him. That was his entire point to travel by himself. So much wrong with this; planets are not close together, read the scan again in the video I posted. "You mean you few all the way from towale" this by no means mean close.
Goku dodged Toppo Justce flash by walking without even looking at it. Jiren Can transcend time itself: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsb ... 1129005256 and he continuously tagged Hit during time manipulation. Hit can skip the time, means Jiren was even one step above him.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:34 am

The ship was indeed slower than him.


Well as the last few posts discussing it pointing it out that is not proven. Its a possible interpretation but its not proven. If the end result is that Jiren is thousands of times the universal speed limit then that should raise some eyebrows, especially when other options are available. My favorite being the ship was just not ready to go, maybe it had a long charge time, maybe it was damaged and indeed repairs etc.

planets are not close together


"You mean you few all the way from towale"


This is relatively speaking. Technically the moon and the earth are not close together but from a celestial standpoint they are.

Jiren Can transcend time itself


Apparently. Or you know, is he just too powerful for Hits time powers, didnt Goku do something similar?
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby hellboy147 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:14 pm

Apparently. Or you know, is he just too powerful for Hits time powers, didnt Goku do something similar?

Statements> apparently, Goku only did it for few moments until Hit was able to adapt, and Goku by no means is any slower.
_
My favorite being the ship was just not ready to go, maybe it had a long charge time, maybe it was damaged and indeed repairs etc.

Highly bias, the ship was ready to, but Jiren decided to travel by himself because he travels faster than ship.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Kitten Lord » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Statements> apparently,


I was referring to the statement, "apparently" according to the angel whats her name.

the ship was ready to,


The ship was ready? How do you know, who said the ship was ready?

because he travels faster than ship.


Prove hes faster than the ship.
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby hellboy147 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:12 pm

Prove hes faster than the ship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0tKGb66ZJk 2:50 - 2:60

EDIT* "The ability to take flight through the manipulation of ki. Combined with his ability to survive the vacuum of space and his tremendous speed, Jiren's flight leaves any spaceship useless to travel from one planet to another."
"In the manga, Jiren is able to survive in the vacuum of space as he proved able to travel through the vastness of space from one planet to another, finding it the quickest way to continue his duties."
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Jiren
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Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:26 pm

Isn't Jiren part of the super-team from that universe? Who's job is to actively fly around that entire universe to police it and are sanctioned by the literal highest universal authority? Him not having immediate access to a ship comes off as a bit odd in that regard since those would be essential to their job. He's not like Goku where he polices one planet- his job is to destroy evil anywhere it arises in that entire universe. That, by proxy, means he and every other Pride Trooper needs to be able to leave for other solar systems and even galaxies.

So, not having a ship seems unlikely given it's his job.
Also we already have characters flying through space at high speeds so the premise of such a thing occurring is already set for Dragonball Super.
Every ship Dragonball has shown in action has been FTL by a wide margin.
Is there actually a good excuse to keep arguing about this one? It's not even anything new- we already knew the higher tiers could fly between planets, stars, and galaxies extremely quickly.
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