FACTPILE IS BACK!!!
CLICK HERE TO SEE FOR YOURSELF
Take a Tour of the Admin's Mancave

Superman vs Goku

This is where you will debate until the main site comes back online.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Authors

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:17 am

The video makes quite a leap about how appearing to stand still while having ten arms out is equal to or approximately 10% c. Jiren also doesn't explain why flying would be faster than using a spaceship. We don't know what kind of spaceships he had in mind because he never specifies. It's a leap to think Jiren was even considering Namekian or Saiyan ships.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:16 am

Mea quidem sententia wrote:The video makes quite a leap about how appearing to stand still while having ten arms out is equal to or approximately 10% c. Jiren also doesn't explain why flying would be faster than using a spaceship. We don't know what kind of spaceships he had in mind because he never specifies. It's a leap to think Jiren was even considering Namekian or Saiyan ships.


To be fair, the Namekian and Saiyan ships in both cases are very old, obsolete technology- as evidenced by Bulma's dad reverse-engineering a superior ship in a short time. It takes the ancient Namekian ship a month or so to get to Namek, the jury-rigged one the guy built could do it in 5 days (or 6? The wiki lists both at different points). Vegeta then later gets a ship that's 5x better than the previous one.

The Dragonball Z ships are one of the few things we actually have speeds for- or at least decent guesses in the more vague cases:
Goku was born and arrived from outside of our solar system before he grew any notable size AFAIK. Saiyans age normally so that can't be much more than a year at worst.
Vegeta and Nappa (and I suppose Raditz) have the same minimal distance but have a more set timeframe of half to a full year.
For either of the above cases, I think the technical lowball requires you to find the nearest solar system, not just going from the edge of ours.

Bulma rides the nameless ship to Jupiter in less than 10 seconds (remember this ship is ancient, 500-ish years old).
^Said ship took a month to get to Namek, Goku's new ride did it in far less time.
Whatshisface's police ship flies around the universe to do his job.

It's a simple fact, to get around in space without taking for-damn-ever, you need FTL or at a minimum serious relativistic speeds. If he actually said anything about flying faster than the ships (Didn't watch the video)- that's not a small thing. Dragonball Z was very blatant in how the ships go fast enough to make interstellar travel possible.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Kitten Lord » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:40 am

Manga or anime whichever you like:


Well one is a claim in the anime, while in the Manga I am assuming he is fireing a projectile at the sun but I see no payoff. I have no idea where they are, or what kind of star he may be trying to destroy there. Maybe its a tiny dwarf star on the verse of collapse anyway, or maybe its a DBZ "tm" star just like some of their little DBZ "tm" planets.


Was it not brought up in one of the other threads that it was specifically implied/stated that the way to beast Dyspo was to listen for the sound of his muscles clenching or whatever? Wasnt that soemthing Hit did?


It's a simple fact, to get around in space without taking for-damn-ever, you need FTL or at a minimum serious relativistic speeds.


Well yes under our physics and rules. Under those same rules you generally cant go FTL so its a contradiction. I am still pretty sure we have no official info on the layout, distances etc of planets in DB.

Also, this does not seem to be that fast it took about a second to breach the atmosphere and the planet did not seem to take much damage rather than a smaller dust cloud (suggesting there was some backblast), pretty sure that can be calculated. How much damage would a faster than light object do in atmosphere taking into account air pressure, resistance etc?

Also according to the video this is nearly 3000 C? :lol: nah



The quote from Jiren is vague, and as mea pointed out, we have no idea what ships he has access to. Maybe it takes a long time to get ready and he did not want to wait? Maybe the planet isnt really that far anyway. We can reverse engineer this, instead of claiming its some high end for speed, maybe its not that great at all, we have seen Jiren fight, we can scale from there unless he uses less effort in combat than just flying from one planet to another.

Ill bet my bottom dollar when we see Jiren going all out, and his eventual defeat its not going to be because someone went massively faster than light to beat him. And I doubt we will ever see anyone fighting or moving at faster than light in combat anyway. We may see someone breaching the speed of sound though, if Dypso has anything to say about it. ;)
Image
User avatar
Kitten Lord
Organ Grinder
 
Posts: 2098
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:59 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:To be fair, the Namekian and Saiyan ships in both cases are very old, obsolete technology- as evidenced by Bulma's dad reverse-engineering a superior ship in a short time.


Is it specifically said to be obsolete? Old technology doesn't necessarily mean it's useless, even in fiction. The word "legendary" comes to mind. To use an example from the Metroid series, in Metroid: Zero Mission, Samus' powered armor is replaced with one that is older. It is known as the "fully powered suit" and even the "legendary power suit". Technology Samus wasn't able to use previously becomes available afterwards. Even the Chozo are perceived to be ahead of their time. Or you could just look at The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim with the Dwemer and their technology. In fact, Namekian ship is obviously better than what earthlings had.

Friendlysociopath wrote:The Dragonball Z ships are one of the few things we actually have speeds for- or at least decent guesses in the more vague cases:
Goku was born and arrived from outside of our solar system before he grew any notable size AFAIK. Saiyans age normally so that can't be much more than a year at worst.


You age slower in space. I'm sure you've heard of identical twins, with one staying on Earth while the other traveled in space, only to return appearing younger than his identical twin.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Whatshisface's police ship flies around the universe to do his job.


Jiren?

Friendlysociopath wrote:It's a simple fact, to get around in space without taking for-damn-ever, you need FTL or at a minimum serious relativistic speeds. If he actually said anything about flying faster than the ships (Didn't watch the video)- that's not a small thing. Dragonball Z was very blatant in how the ships go fast enough to make interstellar travel possible.


He said it'd take longer without explaining why it would take longer.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Kitten Lord » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:02 pm

Jiren?


Think he means this guy;

Image
Image
User avatar
Kitten Lord
Organ Grinder
 
Posts: 2098
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:41 pm

Mea quidem sententia wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:To be fair, the Namekian and Saiyan ships in both cases are very old, obsolete technology- as evidenced by Bulma's dad reverse-engineering a superior ship in a short time.


Is it specifically said to be obsolete? Old technology doesn't necessarily mean it's useless, even in fiction. The word "legendary" comes to mind. To use an example from the Metroid series, in Metroid: Zero Mission, Samus' powered armor is replaced with one that is older. It is known as the "fully powered suit" and even the "legendary power suit". Technology Samus wasn't able to use previously becomes available afterwards. Even the Chozo are perceived to be ahead of their time. Or you could just look at The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim with the Dwemer and their technology. In fact, Namekian ship is obviously better than what earthlings had.


The Namekian ship was understood and modified by an "Earthling" and said Earthling then proceeded to constantly spit out superior ships with only days of production time. I won't say 'useless' but I will say the technology seems to easily be understood, changed, and surpassed. Obsolete just means old and not used- which the ship is and was.
And if the tech is so easily reproduced in one instance- it follows that it's the sort of thing all space-faring civilizations should be able to do so. Dragonball has never had a space-shuttle shown- if they mention 'spaceship' then your options are all alien and all quite fast.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:The Dragonball Z ships are one of the few things we actually have speeds for- or at least decent guesses in the more vague cases:
Goku was born and arrived from outside of our solar system before he grew any notable size AFAIK. Saiyans age normally so that can't be much more than a year at worst.


You age slower in space. I'm sure you've heard of identical twins, with one staying on Earth while the other traveled in space, only to return appearing younger than his identical twin.


You say that, but Goku's appearance matches his age and there's no mention of space slowing him down. Also Dragonball has a timeline. Planet Vegeta was destroyed in the Age 737 and Goku was born the same year. Age 753 sees Goku fighting Piccolo having grown into a form that definitely resembles a teenager while 3 years previously he resembled a smaller child.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:Whatshisface's police ship flies around the universe to do his job.


Jiren?


No- the little dude who I don't know the name of. He's the one who Bulma calls and screams at whenever something goes wrong.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:It's a simple fact, to get around in space without taking for-damn-ever, you need FTL or at a minimum serious relativistic speeds. If he actually said anything about flying faster than the ships (Didn't watch the video)- that's not a small thing. Dragonball Z was very blatant in how the ships go fast enough to make interstellar travel possible.


He said it'd take longer without explaining why it would take longer.


I mean- Jiren doesn't teleport and Goku already showed they're moving so fast in the Tournament that his teleporting is too slow. Not many options left.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:24 pm

@Friendly
The only option is inconclusive.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:05 pm

Mea quidem sententia wrote:@Friendly
The only option is inconclusive.


Any option is inconclusive in fiction, all that means is you can still doubt the conclusion. However, this does form a logical argument.

There's simple premises at work:
Premise 1- Jiren implied spaceships were slower (or something) than he is.
Premise 2- The spaceships in premise 1 are near or above the same speed as the slowest ship speed we know (Namekian ship).
Conclusion- Jiren is faster than the Namekian ship.

It's impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false, so it's a Valid argument.
The only assumptions are that Jiren is telling the truth and that the ships he refers to are equal to the Namekian ship.

As the technology to reach those speeds has existed in Universe 7 for over 500 years (and Universe 7 specifically has a lower Mortal Level than any but Universe 9, which means overall their civilizations are less advanced AFAIK) it seems perfectly fair to insist the other Universes have ships just as fast, if not faster, than it. They have to travel between planets and stars to- it's hardly something unique to Universe 7.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Mea quidem sententia » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:06 am

@Friendly
The first premise doesn't explain why taking a ship would be slower, so it's open to conjecture, and that's it. The second premise assumes Jiren knows about Namekian ships or how fast they move. Just because you have an idea of how fast that ship is does not mean Jiren knows. So your conclusion is neither valid, nor sound.
Mea quidem sententia
Ready For Action
 
Posts: 1719
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Superman vs Goku

Postby Friendlysociopath » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:33 am

Mea quidem sententia wrote:@Friendly
The first premise doesn't explain why taking a ship would be slower, so it's open to conjecture, and that's it. The second premise assumes Jiren knows about Namekian ships or how fast they move.


If he says a ship is slower he can only be referring to functions the ship may have: flight, gravity chambers, healing pods, etc. We don't know of any such functions for his hypothetical ship- but context rules in favor of speed as it was about reaching a destination. Slower would very logically apply to the time it takes for the ship to get there, aka, speed.

The second premise does no such thing, the only thing the second premise supposes is that the ship Jiren referenced would be equal or superior to the 500 year-old one. It doesn't assume anything about him and a Namekian ship or his knowledge of the same.
That said, I'll humor you: Find an object made 500 years ago that works better than the same object made today.
^That would be evidence for the assumption to be a poor one- which rings particularly silly when DBZ actually favors it since the newer ships seem to improve on the older ones in every way. They travel faster, have more features, more amenities, are harder to destroy, etc. In this regard, DBZ mirrors reality and favors the premise as I can't think of anything 500 years old that will function as well as the same object made today- what with better materials and knowledge of the craft.


Mea quidem sententia wrote:Just because you have an idea of how fast that ship is does not mean Jiren knows. So your conclusion is neither valid, nor sound.


...Curious but- what do you think 'valid' means exactly? Because I do not think it means what you think it means. There was absolutely nothing invalid about those premises or the conclusion.
Soundness would suppose the premises were untrue. Which one is untrue? Cite evidence as them actually being false please.

The first is adamantly true, Jiren said that, or are you denying he did so?
The second is an assumption yes, but not an untrue one- it's only an assumption. An assumption in and of itself cannot be true or untrue as otherwise it would be something that could be proven- and not an assumption.
The assumption, however, is one backed in supporting data that shows it's more likely than the opposite. Dragonball generally supports the trend that older, unmodified tech is inferior to new tech. Reality supports this trend as well.
Your counter was to list other fictions that are not Dragonball and how they oppose it- irrelevant of Dragonball or reality. Dragonball does not only do this with spaceships btw. All technology they use repeatedly improves over the course of the series: radars, capsules, cars, cameras, force-fields, gravity-rooms, etc.
What, in Dragonball canon, insists older tech is superior to new tech? Or can match it?

Also that's pretty weak, who insisted Jiren had to know the exact speed of the ship? Who insisted he knew the exact speed of a ship? Jiren doesn't need to know the exact speed of the ship to know the area of speed it may have and make a judgement between his speed and the speed of the ship.


On a side note- what would you call it when an out-of-fiction reason forces the writer to change the plot? It's not PIS as we know it but I'm wondering what such a term would be called. Meta Induced Stupidity? MIS? It's not the characters or the plot itself- but the person who writes it that's being forced to change it.
User avatar
Friendlysociopath
Voice of the People
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:24 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Factpile Debates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests