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Sephiroth vs Vergil

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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:56 am

Lowk wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:We'll just use his feats. He bullet-times for a pistol.
And since we don't do calcs then we'll use feats-
does FF7 have characters that bullet-time?
Yep, Zack and Cloud, with rifles too- so faster bullets than pistols. What's Sephiroth to them?


I doubt those rifles have the velocity or momentum to accelerate something to the point it heats up. Because ebony and Ivory do.


Actually after going over some of the cutscenes again- that's probably just devil energy as later Dante and Vergil each fire a pistol at the guy who absorbed the power of Sparda with a similar effect- except Vergil's has a blue hue instead of the orange like Dante's. It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.
If it were from air friction producing heat- they should both be on fire. They're not- only the sword.

Also we see Dante's bullets being fired the same time as Lady's in the same scene where they even do the thing where Dante shoots her bullets- nothing about the two appear different.

Spoiler
Although if you'd like to walk the path of 'magic' bullets achieving effects through raw speed instead of disproportionate amounts of power via the magic, I believe Aelfinn clocked FF7 pistols at a ludicrous number like Mach 300 and that was assuming only 75 kg for Cloud + his sword.



Oh wait, I missed this

The Romantic idea of Sephiroth just flying away while trying to cast magic instead of using his sword like he does in all his cinematic fights (without magic) is just that.


I mean, I won't judge but I suppose Sephiroth is fairly attractive, all the power to you and your romance I guess.

Also in what cinematic fight where he was going for the kill (like this match) and not holding back did Sephiroth purposefully not use magic and use his sword instead?
I'll give you a hint- we see Sephiroth fighting with the desire to kill and win through any means once in canon- and it's not in Advent Children or Crisis Core- it's the endgame battle in FF7.

It's at this point I'm amused to point out that your romantic idea is exactly what Safer Sephiroth does during his portion of the battle. Fly far enough away that you require ranged attacks like magic or guns to hit him and he bombards you with magic all the while. We even see in the opening cinematic of the battle with him when the party first arrives that he's more than willing to toss out waves of TK/magic to hurl you away from him instead of fighting directly.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Alpha or Omega » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:24 am

Kitten Lord wrote:I asked you to prove that was the case, not re-state your belief.

Is having a whole lengthy fight in there not enough?

Kitten Lord wrote:The relay scene people brought up, the bikes, some of the objects look strange as their falling faster or slower than they should in their final fight as well.

The bike thing was said to be CGI.


Kitten Lord wrote:If the writers/developers confirm that things look off due to CGI and that they do the impossible because their heroes then we have no idea when PiS is just in effect, what is just "odd CGI" that makes no sense and what is logically definable.

The writers confirmed that a bike movement looked off because of cgi, and even then, it was stated that Nomura seems to be going for the impossible.

How is that PIS exactly?

Kitten Lord wrote:When he manages to slash them into pieces seemingly instantaneously, the judgement cut seems to be a blitz as well.

Seems to be ground based and a bull rush through.

Kitten Lord wrote:So how much Materia do we see Sephiroth cast in cutscenes/the movie? If I recall he did not use much if any on Cloud or in his fight with Genesis (who did use some)

In the boss fight against Sephiroth, he's capable of casting several spells.

Cloud had ribbon on so most materia except a few would work.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:35 am

Is having a whole lengthy fight in there not enough?


Well no, that does not prove he was trapped does it. If this was some sort of prison why would Sephiroth be able to just pop in there, and why would there be no issue of leaving, it was literally just a fade to black and no explanation how they got out. Its the same with all summons in the games, the enemies are literally in there long enough to just take an attack and that is all.

At best you propose the idea that you are automatically released when the summon has done its job OR is defeated but its not provable, hence why discussing it as some sort of BFR tactic is a little pointless.

The bike thing was said to be CGI.


I know. So?

How is that PIS exactly?


Characters doing the impossible because their heroes sounds like a perfect argument for PiS. Them doing something that should not be possible on the fly to win in a battle as a flash back to previous material to boot.

In the boss fight against Sephiroth, he's capable of casting several spells.


So out of all his material only one boss fight, in-game is the only one he uses materia? As opposed to, all the other scenes we see him in.

Friendly


desire to kill and win through any means


Is that said somewhere? That he is going for something different to what he does later on?

Safer Sephiroth


Which was an in-game boss fight, as opposed to his actual cutscene appearances and fights in AC. I have been arguing this battle as AC Sephiroth, the one winged angel just like Death battles has, not safer Sephiroth. To clarify is this Safer or current Sephiroth. If its Safer he does not even use a sword does he so the "silver haired swordsman clash" statement in the opening post kind of falls flat.

Course I would not recommend Safer, it seems a slow, hovering form with one arm and wholly reliant on slow casting spells.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby ka-tet19 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:48 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:
Lowk wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:We'll just use his feats. He bullet-times for a pistol.
And since we don't do calcs then we'll use feats-
does FF7 have characters that bullet-time?
Yep, Zack and Cloud, with rifles too- so faster bullets than pistols. What's Sephiroth to them?


I doubt those rifles have the velocity or momentum to accelerate something to the point it heats up. Because ebony and Ivory do.


Actually after going over some of the cutscenes again- that's probably just devil energy as later Dante and Vergil each fire a pistol at the guy who absorbed the power of Sparda with a similar effect- except Vergil's has a blue hue instead of the orange like Dante's. It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.
If it were from air friction producing heat- they should both be on fire. They're not- only the sword.

Also we see Dante's bullets being fired the same time as Lady's in the same scene where they even do the thing where Dante shoots her bullets- nothing about the two appear different.

Spoiler
Although if you'd like to walk the path of 'magic' bullets achieving effects through raw speed instead of disproportionate amounts of power via the magic, I believe Aelfinn clocked FF7 pistols at a ludicrous number like Mach 300 and that was assuming only 75 kg for Cloud + his sword.



Oh wait, I missed this

The Romantic idea of Sephiroth just flying away while trying to cast magic instead of using his sword like he does in all his cinematic fights (without magic) is just that.


I mean, I won't judge but I suppose Sephiroth is fairly attractive, all the power to you and your romance I guess.

Also in what cinematic fight where he was going for the kill (like this match) and not holding back did Sephiroth purposefully not use magic and use his sword instead?
I'll give you a hint- we see Sephiroth fighting with the desire to kill and win through any means once in canon- and it's not in Advent Children or Crisis Core- it's the endgame battle in FF7.

It's at this point I'm amused to point out that your romantic idea is exactly what Safer Sephiroth does during his portion of the battle. Fly far enough away that you require ranged attacks like magic or guns to hit him and he bombards you with magic all the while. We even see in the opening cinematic of the battle with him when the party first arrives that he's more than willing to toss out waves of TK/magic to hurl you away from him instead of fighting directly.

Just kinda watching this debate from my periphery, but if its at all consequential Dantes hand lights up as he approaches the sword. Also in the DMC 2 novel dante is able to fire multiple bullets before the sound of one bullet could be heard. I always used that as a feat for how fast dante could shoot but you would have to also assume that the bullets have a higher velocity than regular bullets. Also I didn't realize my calc mattered to this so much lol The main devil may cry calc guy was a dude on naruto forums. He for whatever reason deleted all his blog but he had calc feats for Vergil at mach 11, mach 15 etc. I didn't think Sephiroth was in that league speed wise. I assumed this debate had to be around some other form of powers. Vergil is also up until their last fight is either superior or equal to Dante who ran fast enough to burst into flames.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:48 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:Just kinda watching this debate from my periphery, but if its at all consequential Dantes hand lights up as he approaches the sword. Also in the DMC 2 novel dante is able to fire multiple bullets before the sound of one bullet could be heard. I always used that as a feat for how fast dante could shoot but you would have to also assume that the bullets have a higher velocity than regular bullets. Also I didn't realize my calc mattered to this so much lol The main devil may cry calc guy was a dude on naruto forums. He for whatever reason deleted all his blog but he had calc feats for Vergil at mach 11, mach 15 etc. I didn't think Sephiroth was in that league speed wise. I assumed this debate had to be around some other form of powers. Vergil is also up until their last fight is either superior or equal to Dante who ran fast enough to burst into flames.


It's consequential yes, his hand lights up. However, it lights up because it's encountering the energy streaming off the sword.
If the energy was raw-heat from traveling through atmosphere at high speeds, Dante's entire body should be producing this same energy as well as he's actively gaining on the thing.
That's not what occurs- the sword is the only thing putting off that energy. Previously the assumption was they just couldn't be bothered lighting Dante up as well if the person in question wanted to push for hypersonic speeds.

It's always been questioned whether it was supposed to be heat or some manner of devil power AFAIK- I just don't think anyone ever thought to look at the scene where Dante and Vergil kill Arkham
https://youtu.be/SkBk6kwKkr0?t=6m55s
And we see basically the same exact effect- Dante's bullet with rippling orange energy. However, a telling sign is that Vergil's shot is glowing with blue energy- because presumably his devil power is influencing the shot.

And as we see later in this scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2rM6mrU-50
We even get a moment where Dante and Lady are firing directly at one another and he uses his bullets to block hers. The two basically cancel one another out- which would make no sense if Lady has normal guns and Dante has pistols that accelerate massive swords to hypersonic speeds. The disparity between the two would be... large.
His bullets for the most part resemble normal bullets when we see them in any case- plus their effect on demons in cutscenes seem to match Lady's own munitions.

DMC2 Dante is after DMC3 Dante, which is the only chronological point both he and Vergil canonically exist together. After DMC3- Vergil becomes Nelo Angelo. Purely for reference the timeline goes:
Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition (Vergil's Story Part), then Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, followed by Devil May Cry, Devil May Cry: The Animated Series, Devil May Cry 4 (both Nero and Dante, and Special Edition's Lady and Trish's Story Parts) and then Devil May Cry 2.
DMC2 would basically be the height of Dante's power, canon-wise.

The gunshots before hearing another one sounds like an interesting puzzle though. You'd have to look into all the variables of him having two guns, the ignition time of bullets, etc.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:52 pm

Oh I missed this;

It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.


This is a ridiculous stretch honestly. I cannot recall Dante empowering other objects with his bullets, on top of that we know his guns are not normal and pack enough wallop to send people through walls and to blast apart train supports in the anime. Between those feats I would be surprised if a sword was not launched to high speeds if shot.

Its true Dante did not burst into flames but you would have to extrapolate on why he would, he is a larger body, different surface area etc, he is also nigh immune to heat so it may take some extremes of temperature/friction to cause him to visibly burn anyway.

The disparity between the two would be... large.


The power of the shot has always seemed to have been Dantes choice. Pretty sure his gunslinger style makes that clear if I recall. And the evidence of him being able to shoot snooker/pool balls around without just piercing/shattering them all the way up to easily blasting holes in steel is another.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby ka-tet19 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:12 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Oh I missed this;

It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.


This is a ridiculous stretch honestly. I cannot recall Dante empowering other objects with his bullets, on top of that we know his guns are not normal and pack enough wallop to send people through walls and to blast apart train supports in the anime. Between those feats I would be surprised if a sword was not launched to high speeds if shot.

Its true Dante did not burst into flames but you would have to extrapolate on why he would, he is a larger body, different surface area etc, he is also nigh immune to heat so it may take some extremes of temperature/friction to cause him to visibly burn anyway.

The disparity between the two would be... large.


The power of the shot has always seemed to have been Dantes choice. Pretty sure his gunslinger style makes that clear if I recall. And the evidence of him being able to shoot snooker/pool balls around without just piercing/shattering them all the way up to easily blasting holes in steel is another.

Just some points that counter both sides, all of dantes bullets are said to be magic as stated by dmc 2. It also seems he can control how powerful they are shot to some extent. This has to be given that he can juggle demons that weigh tons, blast through steel blow apart house size demons or just block bullets depending on what use he sees more fitting. Also his charge shot the guns or his hands glow with visible devil energy as in game play or him killing the despair embodied. Vergil and Dante killing arkham was not a charge shot. It's a soul sealing ability. My point on the DMC 2 novel wasn't that this is equivalent power. Just he can modify the velocity of his bullets
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:50 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:Oh I missed this;

It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.


This is a ridiculous stretch honestly. I cannot recall Dante empowering other objects with his bullets, on top of that we know his guns are not normal and pack enough wallop to send people through walls and to blast apart train supports in the anime. Between those feats I would be surprised if a sword was not launched to high speeds if shot.


The anime takes place later in the timeline. As of DMC3, the game in question, his bullets do not appear any different than Lady's- including the scene where we see them shooting at one another.
Dante empowers objects with his energy- bullets and what have you. The bullets are a medium- not the source.
Dante channeling power into his fist is the reason the statue exploded just prior to the scene where he runs down the tower.
Dante channeling energy into the air is what allows him to double-jump in the first place.
We see him in the anime channel his energy into a motorcycle to make it go faster.
If he can channel his energy into objects to charge them- it follows that his bullets (which are his magical energy) would be able to do the same.



ka-tet19 wrote:Just some points that counter both sides, all of dantes bullets are said to be magic as stated by dmc 2. It also seems he can control how powerful they are shot to some extent. This has to be given that he can juggle demons that weigh tons, blast through steel blow apart house size demons or just block bullets depending on what use he sees more fitting. Also his charge shot the guns or his hands glow with visible devil energy as in game play or him killing the despair embodied. Vergil and Dante killing arkham was not a charge shot. It's a soul sealing ability. My point on the DMC 2 novel wasn't that this is equivalent power. Just he can modify the velocity of his bullets


We know he can modify how the bullets function yes. I'm not 100% sure about velocity based on the shot-passage alone. That quote would be more about firing-rate than speed in any case if he can fire multiple bullets before the sound reaches you. I wouldn't be surprised about him being able to mess with velocity mind you- I just don't see that quote providing anything definitive about it. Especially with how weird DMC is with bullets (Vergil throws Dante's bullets at him, Dante cuts them in half, and THEN they make the 'crack' of a gunshot)
His 'juggling' of enemies occurs in gameplay doesn't it? In cutscenes the bullets seem to go right through them like... well- like bullets.

I don't know if it's charge-shot or whatever- that wasn't the point. The point was that we saw the exact same energy appear- it ripples and glows orange. Now, the original issue is that this can be argued as heat while dropping down the tower, but Vergil is literally right next to Dante with his own rippling energy that is blue. That means Vergil's energy is channeled through the gun he's holding- which is why the energy is blue. Which then raises the logical question of whether the earlier showing was heat or this demon energy that we saw.

In addition, heat doesn't entirely add up as Dante isn't lighting up (nor were his bullets) but his sword was. Heat is rather indiscriminate- particularly when it's not the object itself that heats up but the air around it. Not to mention DMC is apparently quite fine with "magic" bullets.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:56 pm

Dante empowers objects with his energy- bullets and what have you


Right, so if he is the one empowering, why would he empower his bullets, which in turn empower the target? This makes no sense to me. If he wanted to empower the sword, instead of just shooting it to make it go faster why wouldnt he just, you know, empower the sword before he threw it?
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby ka-tet19 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:47 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:
Kitten Lord wrote:Oh I missed this;

It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.


This is a ridiculous stretch honestly. I cannot recall Dante empowering other objects with his bullets, on top of that we know his guns are not normal and pack enough wallop to send people through walls and to blast apart train supports in the anime. Between those feats I would be surprised if a sword was not launched to high speeds if shot.


The anime takes place later in the timeline. As of DMC3, the game in question, his bullets do not appear any different than Lady's- including the scene where we see them shooting at one another.
Dante empowers objects with his energy- bullets and what have you. The bullets are a medium- not the source.
Dante channeling power into his fist is the reason the statue exploded just prior to the scene where he runs down the tower.
Dante channeling energy into the air is what allows him to double-jump in the first place.
We see him in the anime channel his energy into a motorcycle to make it go faster.
If he can channel his energy into objects to charge them- it follows that his bullets (which are his magical energy) would be able to do the same.



ka-tet19 wrote:Just some points that counter both sides, all of dantes bullets are said to be magic as stated by dmc 2. It also seems he can control how powerful they are shot to some extent. This has to be given that he can juggle demons that weigh tons, blast through steel blow apart house size demons or just block bullets depending on what use he sees more fitting. Also his charge shot the guns or his hands glow with visible devil energy as in game play or him killing the despair embodied. Vergil and Dante killing arkham was not a charge shot. It's a soul sealing ability. My point on the DMC 2 novel wasn't that this is equivalent power. Just he can modify the velocity of his bullets


We know he can modify how the bullets function yes. I'm not 100% sure about velocity based on the shot-passage alone. That quote would be more about firing-rate than speed in any case if he can fire multiple bullets before the sound reaches you. I wouldn't be surprised about him being able to mess with velocity mind you- I just don't see that quote providing anything definitive about it. Especially with how weird DMC is with bullets (Vergil throws Dante's bullets at him, Dante cuts them in half, and THEN they make the 'crack' of a gunshot)
His 'juggling' of enemies occurs in gameplay doesn't it? In cutscenes the bullets seem to go right through them like... well- like bullets.

I don't know if it's charge-shot or whatever- that wasn't the point. The point was that we saw the exact same energy appear- it ripples and glows orange. Now, the original issue is that this can be argued as heat while dropping down the tower, but Vergil is literally right next to Dante with his own rippling energy that is blue. That means Vergil's energy is channeled through the gun he's holding- which is why the energy is blue. Which then raises the logical question of whether the earlier showing was heat or this demon energy that we saw.

In addition, heat doesn't entirely add up as Dante isn't lighting up (nor were his bullets) but his sword was. Heat is rather indiscriminate- particularly when it's not the object itself that heats up but the air around it. Not to mention DMC is apparently quite fine with "magic" bullets.


In the Manga which is before DMC 3 Dante explodes a cement statue head with his bullets. I also disagree with your interpretation of Dante's feats. It sounds like you're saying that all of Dante's superhuman abilities are some form of manipulating his demonic energy instead of his physiology. I don't see any reason to assume this is the case. In the case of his use of guns, when Dante uses charge shot we see him infusing his demonic energy with the bullets of ebony and ivory. If the magic bullets of ebony and ivory were the same as Dante using his demonic energy then there would be no charge shot. Every shot would be the charge shot. There is a difference between the two forms of magic bullets and nothing in the scene implies it is the same type of demonic energy Dante uses to super charge his weapons with or when he uses jackpot. The bullets look normal and so do the hands shooting them. I also think kittens has a point we've never seen Dante super charge an object with another object. Along with that we have seen Dante super charge rebellion with his drive attack (and to reference another game the DMC 4 version of dance macabre) and it doesn't look like this scene does. Every time we see it in game the entire blade glows a dark red. Also Dante juggles demons in the anime as well. I might be wrong about this but I believe there is something about using guns to juggle opponents in one of the weapon descriptions also.
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