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Sephiroth vs Vergil

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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:26 am

Alpha


Zack was shown to be stuck


Can you prove this? Looks to me like he just fought it alongside Sephiroth, and then left. Why would Zack be stuck and then why would not every encounter and use of a summon in FF (any game concerning 7) lead to the enemies just being left BFR?

Friendly


^While they do insist it's not "Earth", it was in regards to languages,


Well this sorts it for me, if the developers say its not Earth then I am not considering it as our planet just because its got a name that "could" mean or be used for Earth.

Specifically the quote as opposed to my paraphrasing- though the intent of characters cheating physics remains the same.


All your quotes seem to more imply the movie was showing things impossibly due to it being a fantasy world/CGI more so than them saying the characters were superhuman. Makes me wonder if most of the better/impossible AC feats are just PIS because it looked cool and was done by heroes!

any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII.


Well he has control of the negative lifestream, the life of the planet so its not surprising within that universe.

Distance over time becomes speed.


Yeah only the snag here is he does not cover much distance at all in that time frame despite being in a small enclosure, his impact force if he was moving supersonic should be sending him into the air as a light mass and would more than likely bury his limbs in the dirt, not just along the ground as if he was just partaking in human capable gymnastics, and finally, we know the developers make fun of the scenes with bullets concerning Zack.My favorite one :lol:

Going with what was said for AC, clearly Zack is a hero, hes too heroic to get shot even if hes standing there on the phone and being fired at point blank!

So the answer to;

what is Sephiroth's best speed feat?


HIs only feat is in AC that Friendly mentioned, but you have to assume the slow downs he suggests, none of the physics add up and the fact the developers of AC know this and think characters can do things just because their heroes and accept its impossible sort of puts doubt on how likely these are speed feats and more just the rule of cool in effect.

I suggest wait until the remake comes out, they have more wiggle room in terms of graphical capacity, if they show undeniable scenes of speed beyond "cool heroics" then Sephiroth may get something. Until then, Vergil should blitz this with ease and if he uses Beowulf the ridiculously long Masamune would be a hindrance. I have no reason to think Vergil could not end this in that short blitz then and there honestly.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Alpha or Omega » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:39 am

Kitten Lord wrote:
Can you prove this? Looks to me like he just fought it alongside Sephiroth, and then left. Why would Zack be stuck and then why would not every encounter and use of a summon in FF (any game concerning 7) lead to the enemies just being left BFR?

The whole boss fight against the boss shows he's stuck. Sephiroth never fought alongside Zack.


Kitten Lord wrote:Well this sorts it for me, if the developers say its not Earth then I am not considering it as our planet just because its got a name that "could" mean or be used for Earth.

It may not be called earth, but the physics suggests that its earth like.


Kitten Lord wrote:All your quotes seem to more imply the movie was showing things impossibly due to it being a fantasy world/CGI more so than them saying the characters were superhuman. Makes me wonder if most of the better/impossible AC feats are just PIS because it looked cool and was done by heroes!

Only one line was referring to CGI. Not one of the line was saying the physic defying was because it's a fantasy world.

Nomura literally stated to the defying physics bit as because they were doing the impossible.

Kitten Lord wrote:I suggest wait until the remake comes out, they have more wiggle room in terms of graphical capacity, if they show undeniable scenes of speed beyond "cool heroics" then Sephiroth may get something. Until then, Vergil should blitz this with ease and if he uses Beowulf the ridiculously long Masamune would be a hindrance. I have no reason to think Vergil could not end this in that short blitz then and there honestly.

And until we see ka-tet-19's calculations, Vergil has no notable speed feats either.

Sephiroth can fly and Vergil can't, and he has plethora of spells that Vergil isn't immune to.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:31 am

Alpha or Omega wrote:
Kitten Lord wrote:Well this sorts it for me, if the developers say its not Earth then I am not considering it as our planet just because its got a name that "could" mean or be used for Earth.

It may not be called earth, but the physics suggests that its earth like.


Can't say I'm surprised or disappointed. I can say that would fall under theorycrafting. I happen to think they all have magnets in their stomachs and that's what allows them to float longer. A powerful magnet would even allow Cloud to lift that giant-ass sword. Seems to add up.

That said-
Note how one of the quotes was specifically about how the heroes could do the impossible?
Know what "impossible" means?
Impossible: adjective - not able to occur, exist, or be done.

Now that's strange, if these were the natural physics of the planet, why would the characters using them be impossible?
Then, later, it was specified the kids that were showing superhuman abilities were doing so because they were changed; which is odd since that implies the superhuman showings aren't normal either.
Huh, must be a really weird world when, in response to questions about how something doesn't obey physics, it was always answered that the subjects in question weren't normal instead of any mention about how the planet allows them to do it because of odd physics.
Still, I have to wonder about all the things we take for granted that a lighter gravity would fuck up: the way our buildings are structured, how water works, the path a bullet travels, and how all these things seem to actually very closely mirror Earth. Including how most people run, jump, fall, etc.
It's almost, almost, like there's this certain bunch of characters that don't use the same physics as the majority of the world; which is odd because the majority of the world seems to have physics very similar to our own. I wonder if the developers ever implied that when asked?


Alpha or Omega wrote:
Kitten Lord wrote:I suggest wait until the remake comes out, they have more wiggle room in terms of graphical capacity, if they show undeniable scenes of speed beyond "cool heroics" then Sephiroth may get something. Until then, Vergil should blitz this with ease and if he uses Beowulf the ridiculously long Masamune would be a hindrance. I have no reason to think Vergil could not end this in that short blitz then and there honestly.

And until we see ka-tet-19's calculations, Vergil has no notable speed feats either.

Sephiroth can fly and Vergil can't, and he has plethora of spells that Vergil isn't immune to.


Shame Vergil doesn't have Beowulf at the end of DMC3, Dante does. Vergil at the end of DMC3 apparently wanted to use the incredibly ineffective combo of two full-sized swords- noted by martial artists across the world as being an extremely bad combination.
Also a shame that two-handed large swords beat out single-hand swords in terms of martial advantages. A larger shame is that Sephiroth's can function as a spear due to its length, which even farther extends that advantage as spear/staff grossly defeats single-hand swords even worse than a two-hander would.
Actually, I'm fine with this, anyone want to start listing all the ways DMC gives the finger to physics so we can dismiss that entire verse as well as the characters having no agency and the world just being weird? I'm fairly sure I recall the series insisting at one point the human world and demon world were one place- that sure doesn't sound like our Earth.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:35 am

The whole boss fight against the boss shows he's stuck


How does that show or prove he was stuck?

but the physics suggests that its earth like.


Sometimes it looks like they do, other times they look weird.

Only one line was referring to CGI


stated to the defying physics bit as because they were doing the impossible.


Well sure call it what you will, physics being ignored due to CGI, doing the impossible because their "heroes" and what not covers the same base. It makes what they do harder and harder to gauge. No idea what is just CGI flair, heroic PSI or what have you.

And until we see ka-tet-19's calculations, Vergil has no notable speed feats either.


Err, no that is not how it works. A fans calculations are irrelevant, we know the character has feats, he bullet times, he blitzes with his blades and all this has been calculated before to be several times the speed of sound. That is better than nothing.

Sephiroth can fly


Cannot recall him making most of it in his fights.

plethora of spells that Vergil isn't immune to.


Maybe, or maybe Sephiroth wont even use them or they'll get him killed for taking too long to cast. I suspect the fight will be over as soon as Vergil acts and Sephiroth cannot react anyway. The Romantic idea of Sephiroth just flying away while trying to cast magic instead of using his sword like he does in all his cinematic fights (without magic) is just that, its like Cloud not going into range with his buster sword and just quad casting materia because its kind of possible in-game.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:49 pm

Also didn't Ragnorke calc basically all of Vergil's DMC4 feats to basically be supersonic or below? From his opening cinematic to that trailer bit where he uses Judgement cut to slice all enemies on screen? The latter in particular probably has lower results than Rag calc'd in the first place as I noticed if an enemy walks onto screen after Vergil initiates the attack- they won't be affected and still move fine. So instead of using stopped/slowed-time values, it would be a real-time attack.

Also just to provide a summary:
Vergil's best strength feat is punting Beowulf, a being slightly larger than a Gorilla, into the air, using magical boots and gloves that may or may not have increased his strength and be applicable to his power without said boots and gauntlets as he doesn't keep them.
Sephiroth's strength feats involve lifting and impaling a snake that's over 60 feet long and 6 feet thick onto a tree and striking several floors of a building through the air, the latter of which is noted to have been done with not a great deal of effort.

Vergil's speed feats involve spinning his sword around to block bullets from Dante's pistol and dashing around the arena at FTE speeds with his sword.
Sephiroth's speed feats involve repeatedly blitzing opponents who can react to pistol bullets from multiple shooters and another opponent who can see automatic rifle shots pass by in slow-motion. He also has FTE showings such as appearing from nowhere to cut an opponent down plus whatever the hell he did to Tseng in the Forgotten Temple.

Mobility-wise both have showings of moving so fast they appear to teleport or perhaps outright teleporting. Sephiroth has the power of flight while Vergil does not.

Durability-wise Vergil has taken damage from basically everything that hits him in DMC3. He regenerates from it but it appears to cost energy, as more wounds are noted to weaken him.
Sephiroth by contrast was thrown through multiple floors of a building without taking damage and also survived a 70 foot fall and being buried beneath hundreds of tons of rubble- again with no damage.

Vergil's regeneration is fast enough that he heals injuries rapidly, at one point being sliced in half and recovering before he could fall apart.
Sephiroth's regeneration is apparently just as fast as he himself is slashed cleanly through as well but otherwise is unharmed.

Vergil's end-game setup is either his Yamato alone, Yamato + Force Edge, Force Edge alone, blade-beam style attacks, or his summoned swords. If you wish to give him all of his powers he had as Vergil instead of only his final setup, you additionally gain boots and gauntlets.
Sephiroth's possible setup (he retains all powers he has in death as he had in life) includes: his Masamune, blade-beam style attacks, fire magic, ice magic, lightning magic, telekinesis, shadow magic, illusions, defensive shield magic, magic barrier dispelling magic, buff removing magic, petrification magic, time manipulating magic, death magic, polymorphing magic, earth magic, vitality draining magic (Heartless Angel), dimensional BFR and attack (Supernova).
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:26 pm

Sephiroth's strength feats involve lifting and impaling a snake


Conjecture, again...probably need not read more but meh

To summarize every argument for Sephiroth's physical stats is conjecture/theory and assumption.

Vergil's speed feats involve spinning his sword around to block bullets from Dante's pistol and dashing around the arena at FTE speeds with his sword.


Besides those, which are better than "power-scale Seph to X wrongly, whos feats are also often overhyped!" pretty sure there was a comic calc, and judgement cut was pretty fast. Would like to see the calcs.

Durability


Mostly irrelevant because their both superhumans using empowered blades. I have yet to see anything that makes me think either would outright no sell a blow from eachother.

Sephiroth's regeneration is apparently just as fast as he himself is slashed cleanly through as well but otherwise is unharmed.


Would like to see this, and more evidence behind his regen and what it consists of. Omnislash did him in pretty well.

fire magic, ice magic, lightning magic, telekinesis, shadow magic, illusions, defensive shield magic, magic barrier dispelling magic, buff removing magic, petrification magic, time manipulating magic, death magic, polymorphing magic, earth magic, vitality draining magic (Heartless Angel), dimensional BFR and attack (Supernova).


Prove how many of these he has. and then please prove he uses them in cobmat because I have yet to see it outside the in-game boss fight. I have generally seem him fighting blade to blade apart from his other forms like Safer.

How many of these would even help him bearing in mind cast time is likely nil due to Vergils speed anyway. If Sephiroth could be proven to have damage soak on the level of surviving a blitz of blade blows from Vergil then they may come up, but I have yet to see it.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Alpha or Omega » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Kitten Lord wrote:How does that show or prove he was stuck?

Because he in that dimension with no way out until Sephiroth came in there.

Kitten Lord wrote:Sometimes it looks like they do, other times they look weird.

Explain.

Kitten Lord wrote:Well sure call it what you will, physics being ignored due to CGI, doing the impossible because their "heroes" and what not covers the same base. It makes what they do harder and harder to gauge. No idea what is just CGI flair, heroic PSI or what have you.

The bike being able to move like that was CGI which has no relation to gravity at all.

The only thing that was off in relation to gravity was that team work thing, and Nomura chalked that up to doing the impossible. We're talking about physics, not what they do. And, what they do isn't hard to gauge. It's just gravity being defied.

Kitten Lord wrote:Err, no that is not how it works. A fans calculations are irrelevant, we know the character has feats, he bullet times, he blitzes with his blades and all this has been calculated before to be several times the speed of sound. That is better than nothing.

He never blitzes anyone unless you mean to cut people down to size. At best he bullrushes people and goes by them. The bullet times are super sonic, but Vergil isn't capable of moving at super sonic speeds without beowulf, and he doesn't run faster than the speed of sound.

Kitten Lord wrote:Cannot recall him making most of it in his fights.

He does it against Genesis and Cloud.


Kitten Lord wrote:Maybe, or maybe Sephiroth wont even use them or they'll get him killed for taking too long to cast. I suspect the fight will be over as soon as Vergil acts and Sephiroth cannot react anyway. The Romantic idea of Sephiroth just flying away while trying to cast magic instead of using his sword like he does in all his cinematic fights (without magic) is just that, its like Cloud not going into range with his buster sword and just quad casting materia because its kind of possible in-game.

Literally some of the spells being cast by the main cast is moving their limbs around just to do it.

Cloud doesn't have materia in Advent Children.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:36 pm

Actually if fan calcs are irrelevant then we don't have any calcs for Vergil's speed.

We'll just use his feats. He bullet-times for a pistol.
And since we don't do calcs then we'll use feats-
does FF7 have characters that bullet-time?
Yep, Zack and Cloud, with rifles too- so faster bullets than pistols. What's Sephiroth to them?

Oh right, faster and stronger.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:37 pm

Because he in that dimension with no way out


I asked you to prove that was the case, not re-state your belief.

Explain


The relay scene people brought up, the bikes, some of the objects look strange as their falling faster or slower than they should in their final fight as well.

what they do isn't hard to gauge. It's just gravity being defied.


If the writers/developers confirm that things look off due to CGI and that they do the impossible because their heroes then we have no idea when PiS is just in effect, what is just "odd CGI" that makes no sense and what is logically definable.

you mean to cut people


When he manages to slash them into pieces seemingly instantaneously, the judgement cut seems to be a blitz as well.

Literally some of the spells being cast by the main cast is moving their limbs around just to do it.


So how much Materia do we see Sephiroth cast in cutscenes/the movie? If I recall he did not use much if any on Cloud or in his fight with Genesis (who did use some)

Friendly


Actually if fan calcs are irrelevant


You misunderstand, I never said they were irrelevant. I pointed out that the feats exist regardless of whether or not they are calculated. I corrected Alpha who said;

until we see ka-tet-19's calculations, Vergil has no notable speed feats either.


The feats exist regardless of whether or not Ka-tet displays the calcs, and I am pretty sure there are calcs already in the respect thread. Most of the bullet timing and casual stuff Vergil actually does is self explanatory.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Lowk » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:42 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:We'll just use his feats. He bullet-times for a pistol.
And since we don't do calcs then we'll use feats-
does FF7 have characters that bullet-time?
Yep, Zack and Cloud, with rifles too- so faster bullets than pistols. What's Sephiroth to them?


I doubt those rifles have the velocity or momentum to accelerate something to the point it heats up. Because ebony and Ivory do.
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