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Sephiroth vs Vergil

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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:19 pm

ka-tet19 wrote:In the Manga which is before DMC 3 Dante explodes a cement statue head with his bullets. I also disagree with your interpretation of Dante's feats. It sounds like you're saying that all of Dante's superhuman abilities are some form of manipulating his demonic energy instead of his physiology. I don't see any reason to assume this is the case. In the case of his use of guns, when Dante uses charge shot we see him infusing his demonic energy with the bullets of ebony and ivory. If the magic bullets of ebony and ivory were the same as Dante using his demonic energy then there would be no charge shot. Every shot would be the charge shot. There is a difference between the two forms of magic bullets and nothing in the scene implies it is the same type of demonic energy Dante uses to super charge his weapons with or when he uses jackpot. The bullets look normal and so do the hands shooting them. I also think kittens has a point we've never seen Dante super charge an object with another object. Along with that we have seen Dante super charge rebellion with his drive attack (and to reference another game the DMC 4 version of dance macabre) and it doesn't look like this scene does. Every time we see it in game the entire blade glows a dark red. Also Dante juggles demons in the anime as well. I might be wrong about this but I believe there is something about using guns to juggle opponents in one of the weapon descriptions also.


I did not say his bullets aren't powerful nor that all of his feats come from demonic energy. However, that energy DOES exist and is featured in many of the cutscenes of DMC3- the early title of the series that shows how Dante began to gain/use his power.
His physiology IS what gives him the demon-energy don't forget. The obvious implication (including that of the manga) is that he has superhuman qualities but cannot fully access them until his blood awakens. Such as when the one demon-girl bites him and tries draining him- which causes him to change form and pump out 'more' demonic energy to fill her up until she couldn't deal with it.
Look at him right after he lost to Vergil- what happens? He jumps up and visibly starts glowing with energy. To say his demonic energy/power has no influence over his abilities is a pretty odd stance. He was superhuman before his blood awakened, all well and good, that doesn't mean his newly awakened powers had no effect on him or what he could do. He looks visibly surprised at busting the statue after he had his awakening- clearly it did produce some difference in him.

The Charge shot is just that- a charged shot of more than normal power. It's because of that charging that Dante can't fire them out like that all of the time.
Also "we've never seen it" does not discredit any theory of a one-time event. We've never seen Dante move so fast he catches fire either- yet that's the alternative being proposed despite the scene showing it being excessively wonky even by fictional standards.
If there's not enough evidence to merit the devil energy theory then there very surely isn't enough for the catching-fire theory as it also only occurs once. To boot, we're given a very good indicator when Dante+Vergil kill Arkham that the visual is based on who and how the gun is shot rather than a quality of the bullets themselves.

In addition, I think it's overall a better stance that, when magic bullets are mentioned for any fiction, it's better to ascribe unusual effects to the magic part rather than raw speed. This leads to very odd numbers like double and triple-digit Mach bullets for fictions like RWBY and FF. Unless speed is for some in-verse reason given to the be the correct reason.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Lowk » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:21 pm

Friendlysociopath wrote:Actually after going over some of the cutscenes again- that's probably just devil energy as later Dante and Vergil each fire a pistol at the guy who absorbed the power of Sparda with a similar effect- except Vergil's has a blue hue instead of the orange like Dante's. It would explain why the sword is glowing with energy but not Dante- despite Dante going faster than the sword. He shot it with bullets to empower it to blast through the monsters it hit.
If it were from air friction producing heat- they should both be on fire. They're not- only the sword.


The problem with that theory.
-The bullet wasn't glowing. It wasn't a jackpot charged shot like with Arkham. That's something different than his normal attacks. He does it against another entity supercharged with demon powers later on in life with someone else.
https://youtu.be/lvpKRqdVXRg?t=7m47s
He has only done that against powerful/unkillable entities with the aid of someone else

-If it's empowered it would've just started glowing. All over the blade. Like has been shown when Dante charges his sword with energy.
https://streamable.com/qwv6z
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dev ... 0503045450
-It's also normally red like most his normal charged stuff. As noted above, the instance your trying to use is a special attack; different from his normal moves.
-Instead, It starts at the tip as a cone that grows as the sword goes faster. And after he catches it you can also see the sword start to cool.
-Normally when the charge is done the sword just instantly turns back to normal. It doesn't cool down from a slightly orange hue.

It's basically the Gilgamesh chop prequel.
https://youtu.be/7Rz2ivHHCug?t=1m12s
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:41 pm

Lowk wrote:The problem with that theory.
-The bullet wasn't glowing. It wasn't a jackpot charged shot like with Arkham. That's something different than his normal attacks. He does it against another entity supercharged with demon powers later on in life with someone else.
https://youtu.be/lvpKRqdVXRg?t=7m47s
He has only done that against powerful/unkillable entities with the aid of someone else


The problem with the opposing theory is:
- It doesn't match up with physics at all. Dante is gaining on the sword that's activity on fire- yet not burning himself. Also the bullets were not catching either- which they must be in order to strike the blade and increase the speed to that level. You won't speed something up to X speed when your own speed is less than X.
- The visual is identical to his later shot with Vergil- the energy coating his bullet looks exactly like the energy coating his sword in that scene. And to go farther, we see Vergil produced his own version. If they can produce this manner of energy without the excuse of excessive speed- it's effectively impossible to prove it was speed and not this same energy appearing for the tower.




Lowk wrote:-If it's empowered it would've just started glowing. All over the blade. Like has been shown when Dante charges his sword with energy.
https://streamable.com/qwv6z
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dev ... 0503045450
-It's also normally red like most his normal charged stuff. As noted above, the instance your trying to use is a special attack; different from his normal moves.
-Instead, It starts at the tip as a cone that grows as the sword goes faster. And after he catches it you can also see the sword start to cool.
-Normally when the charge is done the sword just instantly turns back to normal. It doesn't cool down from a slightly orange hue.


- Except it's not the same ability but a different application of it- so there's no reason it has to look the same. Also when his power is waking up he's pulsing with white light so no- his colors are not limited to red. He also has white and apparently orange as multiple times he's fired a glowing orange attack.
- And the special attack's color doesn't seem to be based on heat- as Vergil's is blue despite moving the same speed as Dante's orange one.
- As stated above- it's not the same manner of charging so it shouldn't look the same. Looking the same would prove it for sure, not looking the same does not disprove it.

There's no way to prove the effect was heat made from accelerating through the air when we have the same exact visual appear later alongside a visual of the same design with a different color.
Imagine if someone threw a lightning bolt and then someone else right alongside them threw a lightning bolt that was colored in plaid- that pretty heavily leans against the previous lightning as having natural attributes ascribed to it as magic is at work for the attack- no matter how much the original resembles real lightning.
Now replace lightning with, "Rippling orange glow" and natural attributes with "glowing orange due to heat" and you get the idea.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby ka-tet19 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:32 pm

I can not for the life of me figure out when in the series it was but there is another instance of Dante running so fast he ignites. At least I believe it was Dante.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Lowk » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:11 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:- It doesn't match up with physics at all. Dante is gaining on the sword that's activity on fire- yet not burning himself.


his hand was the indicator that he was reaching those speeds. Showing speed by something heating up with a cone, are both common enough tropes and indicators of what they were going for.
Rather than a theroy that relies on a specific move that isn't nor had no need to be used.

Friendlysociopath wrote: The visual is identical to his later shot with Vergil- the energy coating his bullet looks exactly like the energy coating his sword in that scene.


Jackpot niether has the cone nor the gradual spread. As shown in DMC, even when charging himself with jackpot with himself it is instant rather than a build up.

Friendlysociopath wrote:- Except it's not the same ability but a different application of it- so there's no reason it has to look the same. Also when his power is waking up he's pulsing with white light so no- his colors are not limited to red. He also has white and apparently orange as multiple times he's fired a glowing orange attack.


His Standard charging aura is red especially when dealing with his sword. Charging his guns, red. charging his sword, red. In the next game even using his sword as a projectile, red.
Jackpot is the only move I can recall using his basic weapons that has a orange hue. It's shown more than once. How many times has he charged his sword orange?

Friendlysociopath wrote:There's no way to prove the effect was heat made from accelerating through the air when we have the same exact visual appear later alongside a visual of the same design with a different color.


The cone, the gradual build up as it accelerates differentiate it from jackpot. And neither the gun nor the bullet demonstrated anything consistant with jackpot, the only thing notable showing a different effect and color to Dante's usual charge attacks. That point against your theory.
Also, has Dante ever charge his weapons wih a bullet before? I don't recall seeing nor reading about that being a noted ability.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Kitten Lord » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:46 am

Not sure why this is being discussed, its such an out of the way theory to propose he somehow carried charge in his bullets, without them showing charge as they often do in his charged shots/jackpot, his sword does not show the same hue as it does when it charged and we actually see it speed up.

Also, has Dante ever charge his weapons wih a bullet before? I don't recall seeing nor reading about that being a noted abilit


Me either.

In either case this is all besides the fact Dantes guns are powerful regardless of the cause, calling them normal pistols and comparing them to unknown guns in FF is nonsensical especially when the bullet timing for those characters requires giddy leaps of logic and assumptions to make them impressive and honestly, they are not even Sephiroths feats.

Vergil has actual decent speed feats, and if we include power scaling the same level as we do for Seph, then Vergil may scale to Dante who was not shown to stomp him even in their final fight. Hell, they battled to the limit of their abilities when Arham wanted their blood.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Friendlysociopath » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:33 am

Lowk wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote:- It doesn't match up with physics at all. Dante is gaining on the sword that's activity on fire- yet not burning himself.


his hand was the indicator that he was reaching those speeds. Showing speed by something heating up with a cone, are both common enough tropes and indicators of what they were going for.
Rather than a theroy that relies on a specific move that isn't nor had no need to be used.


He was using it to kill demons, his literal job.
Dante's quite fond of doing things he doesn't "need" to do. See every weapon flourish ever.
Hell, he didn't "need" to shoot the sword several time either.


Lowk wrote:
Friendlysociopath wrote: The visual is identical to his later shot with Vergil- the energy coating his bullet looks exactly like the energy coating his sword in that scene.


Jackpot niether has the cone nor the gradual spread. As shown in DMC, even when charging himself with jackpot with himself it is instant rather than a build up.


Not interested in showings from other games that also never show him moving so fast he heats up.
They were perfectly capable of doing fire earlier in the game and, as you keep insisting, Dante's power is red- so why does Dante get basically the same visual if the uses have nothing in common?


Lowk wrote:[
Friendlysociopath wrote:- Except it's not the same ability but a different application of it- so there's no reason it has to look the same. Also when his power is waking up he's pulsing with white light so no- his colors are not limited to red. He also has white and apparently orange as multiple times he's fired a glowing orange attack.


His Standard charging aura is red especially when dealing with his sword. Charging his guns, red. charging his sword, red. In the next game even using his sword as a projectile, red.
Jackpot is the only move I can recall using his basic weapons that has a orange hue. It's shown more than once. How many times has he charged his sword orange?


Apparently about how many times he supposedly caught up to something on fire from speed- once.


Lowk wrote:[
Friendlysociopath wrote:There's no way to prove the effect was heat made from accelerating through the air when we have the same exact visual appear later alongside a visual of the same design with a different color.


The cone, the gradual build up as it accelerates differentiate it from jackpot. And neither the gun nor the bullet demonstrated anything consistant with jackpot, the only thing notable showing a different effect and color to Dante's usual charge attacks. That point against your theory.
Also, has Dante ever charge his weapons wih a bullet before? I don't recall seeing nor reading about that being a noted ability.
[/quote]

Killed demons, consistant with jackpot (not that I said it was jackpot)
Riplling with orange energy, just like jackpot
Energy came as a result of using his guns, just like jackpot
Also, has Dante ever moved fast enough to catch fire before? I don't recall seeing nor reading about that being something he can do.

In addition, his bullets throughout that entire game, including past his transformed scene, are shown as identical to Lady's. There's even a scene where they fight back-to-back and we get to see the guns in action.
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby ka-tet19 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:06 am

Just so you guys know i haven't forgotten about that calc, I'm just counting frames instead of trying to gage times in slow motion now to get better numbers. Also it looks like out of everything I looked at for that scene 80% is useless but the other 20% is very nice :D
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Re: Sephiroth vs Vergil

Postby Lowk » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 am

Friendlysociopath wrote:He was using it to kill demons, his literal job.
Dante's quite fond of doing things he doesn't "need" to do. See every weapon flourish ever.
Hell, he didn't "need" to shoot the sword several time either.


Jackpot is the equivalent to him bringing out devil trigger in a cutscene. It's not casual and both times required additional power to work.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Not interested in showings from other games that also never show him moving so fast he heats up.
They were perfectly capable of doing fire earlier in the game and, as you keep insisting, Dante's power is red- so why does Dante get basically the same visual if the uses have nothing in common?


It sets a precedence for the moves later use. 3 did a call back to that same move using a different color of of power than he normally uses.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Apparently about how many times he supposedly caught up to something on fire from speed- once.


Twice. He did the same thing in DMC 4.

Friendlysociopath wrote:Killed demons, consistant with jackpot (not that I said it was jackpot)
Riplling with orange energy, just like jackpot
Energy came as a result of using his guns, just like jackpot
Also, has Dante ever moved fast enough to catch fire before? I don't recall seeing nor reading about that being something he can do.


-It was killing demons before the the glow even appeared. Becasue all dante did was accelrate it to punch through them. Jackpot doesn't gradually build up like that. Neither in the scene you showed or the other times it's used. Nor does his typical charging up in either 3 or 4 demonstrate this.
YOu mean the heat effect and cone that slowly appears as the sword start moving faster. Something Jackpot doesn't do.
-Except the bullets didn't glow like jackpot. Nor did his hands. Either of these signs would've suggested it's use or even charging power in the first place.
-Yes, in the very next game when he fell his hand and only his hand went through the hellgate so fast heat was the result.

ka-tet19 wrote:Also it looks like out of everything I looked at for that scene 80% is useless but the other 20% is very nice

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